English
1 BEFORE THE ETHICS COMMISSION
2 CITY AND COUNTY OF SAN FRANCISCO
3 STATE OF CALIFORNIA
4
5 In the Matter of Charges Against
6 ROSS MIRKARIMI,
7 Sheriff, City and County of San Francisco
8 _______________________________________
9
10
11 City and County of San Francisco
12 Special Meeting of the Ethics Commission
13 Volume 5 (Pages 720-987)
14 Friday, June 29, 2012 - 9:04 a.m.
15
16
17
18 Reported by: Marlene Puaoi, CSR, RPR
California CSR No. 7370
19 and
Jeannette Samoulides, CSR
20 California CSR No. 5254
21
22 Bonnie Wagner Court Reporting
Certified Shorthand Reporters
23 1819 Polk Street, No. 446
San Francisco, California 94109
24 (415) 982-4849
25
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Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 BE IT REMEMBERED that on Friday, June 29,
2 2012, at CITY HALL, 1 Dr. Carlton B. Goodlett Place,
3 Room 400, San Francisco, California, before MARLENE
4 PUAOI, a Certified Shorthand Reporter in and for the
5 State of California, commencing at the hour of 9:04 a.m.
6 and ending at the hour of 12:15 p.m., and before
7 JEANNETTE SAMOULIDES, a Certified Shorthand Reporter in
8 and for the State of California, commencing at the hour
9 of 1:05 p.m. and ending at the hour of 5:15 p.m., the
10 following proceedings were had of record.
11 ---o0o---
12
13 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL
14 For Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
15 LAW OFFICES OF SHEPARD S. KOPP
11355 W. Olympic Boulevard, Suite 300
16 Los Angeles, California 90064
BY: SHEPARD S. KOPP, Attorney at Law
17 - and -
18 LAW OFFICES OF DAVID P. WAGGONER
2251 Market Street, Suite B
19 San Francisco, California 94114
BY: DAVID P. WAGGONER, Attorney at Law
20
21 For the City and County of San Francisco
22 OFFICE OF THE CITY ATTORNEY
1390 Market Street, Fifth Floor
23 San Francisco, California 94102-5408
BY: PETER J. KEITH, Deputy City Attorney
24 BY: SHERRI SOKELAND KAISER, Deputy City Attorney
25
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1 For the Ethics Commission Board
2 MOSCONE, EMBLIDGE & SATER, LLP
220 Montgomery Street, Suite 2100
3 San Francisco, California 94104
BY: G. SCOTT EMBLIDGE, Attorney at Law
4
5 ---o0o---
6 Commissioners Present
7 Benedict Y. Hur, Commission Chairman
Jamienne S. Studley
8 Beverly Hayon
Dorothy S. Liu
9 Paul A. Renne
10 Staff Present
11 John St. Croix, Executive Director
Catherine Argumedo, Legal Analyst/Ethics Investigator
12 Garrett Chatfield, Legal Analyst/Ethics Investigator
Mabel Ng, Deputy Executive Director
13
14 ---o0o---
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 INDEX
2 Page
3 MORNING SESSION 724
4 AFTERNOON SESSION 855
5
6
7 INDEX OF WITNESSES
8
9 ROSS MIRKARIMI Page
10 Cross-Examination by Mr. Keith (Resumed) 725
11 Redirect Examination by Mr. Waggoner 815
12 Recross-Examination by Mr. Keith 829
13 Further Recross-Examination by Mr. Keith 851
14
15 EDWIN M. LEE
16 Cross-Examination by Mr. Kopp 856
17 Redirect Examination by Ms. Kaiser 897
18 Recross-Examination by Mr. Kopp 906
19
20 WILLIAM M. LANSDOWNE
21 Cross-Examination by Mr. Kopp 908
22 Redirect Examination by Ms. Kaiser 930
23 Recross-Examination by Mr. Kopp 946
24 ---o0o---
25
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1 Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi June 29, 2012
2 ---o0o---
3 P R O C E E D I N G S
4 COMMISSIONER HUR: Good morning, and welcome to the
5 continued special meeting of the San Francisco Ethics
6 Commission. We are dealing with the official misconduct
7 charges against Sheriff Mirkarimi. We apologize for the
8 slight delay. Due to the contours of this room and that
9 it's not really set up particularly well for witness
10 testimony, we had to adjust some of the seating. So we
11 apologize for the slight delay.
12 When we broke last night, Sheriff Mirkarimi was
13 giving his testimony. Sheriff, if you wouldn't mind
14 taking the witness stand.
15 THE WITNESS: Resume seating?
16 COMMISSIONER HUR: Please be seated.
17 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
18 COMMISSIONER HUR: Okay. Before we begin
19 questioning, let's take the roll.
20 (Roll taken)
21 COMMISSIONER HUR: All members of the commission
22 are present. The witness is seated. Counsel is ready.
23 Sheriff, I remind you that you are still under oath.
24 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
25 COMMISSIONER HUR: Mr. Keith, please proceed.
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1 MR. KEITH: Thank you.
2 ---o0o---
3 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. KEITH (Resumed):
4 MR. KEITH: Q. Good morning, Sheriff.
5 A. Good morning.
6 Q. Sheriff, you recall being directed by the
7 chair of the commission last night not to discuss your
8 testimony with anyone between the time you left the
9 stand last night and this morning. Do you recall that
10 direction?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay. Who have you spoken with since
last
13 night?
14 A. My attorneys.
15 Q. What did you say to them?
16 MR. WAGGONER: Objection, attorney-client
17 privilege.
18 COMMISSIONER HUR: Objection sustained.
19 MR. KEITH: Q. Did you speak with anyone about
20 your testimony?
21 MR. WAGGONER: Objection, relevance.
22 COMMISSIONER HUR: I'll allow that.
23 THE WITNESS: No.
24 MR. KEITH: Q. This morning, did you stop for
25 coffee?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Who was there?
3 MR. WAGGONER: Objection, relevance.
4 COMMISSIONER HUR: Sustained.
5 MR. KEITH: Q. Sheriff, I want to go back to your
6 relationship with Linnette Peralta Haynes. What is your
7 relationship with Linnette Peralta Haynes?
8 A. Professional and social.
9 Q. When did that relationship begin between you
10 and Ms. Peralta Haynes?
11 A. I'd say a few years ago, when she was a
12 legislative aide here at the Board of Supervisors, or
13 even maybe before that.
14 Q. And when did she join your campaign for
15 sheriff?
16 A. About five weeks before the election.
17 Q. And can you describe your wife's relationship
18 with Linnette Peralta Haynes in 2011?
19 A. I would say friendly, social.
20 Q. Did you introduce them?
21 A. I believe they just met themselves, but since
22 Ms. Peralta Haynes worked on our campaign, that must
23 have been one of the ways that they met. But they could
24 have met even before.
25 Q. Have you referred to Ms. Peralta Haynes in the
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1 past as a domestic violence advocate?
2 A. Me personally?
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. No.
5 Q. Is your relationship with Ms. Peralta Haynes
6 in the professional capacity as a political consultant
7 or a domestic violence advocate?
8 A. It's always been on a political/social level.
9 Q. Sheriff, Exhibit 82, which is an exhibit
10 that's in the record, it's AT&T phone records, and that
11 exhibit shows that at 11:18 a.m. on January 4th your
12 wife and Linnette Peralta Haynes had a telephone call
13 that lasted over 39 minutes.
14 Tell us everything you know about how your wife and
15 Linnette Peralta Haynes came to have that conversation
16 on January 4th.
17 A. I'm sorry. I -- I cannot tell you because I
18 didn't have a conversation with them about that
19 conversation.
20 Q. Okay. So you have no idea how your wife and
21 Linnette Peralta Haynes ended up having a phonecall in
22 the morning of January 4th?
23 A. Well, what I would suspect is that we are, on
24 January 4th, four days from me being inaugurated as
25 the 35th sheriff of the City and County of
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1 San Francisco. That was also two days before where a
2 rather sizable dinner was being planned in honor of the
3 people, volunteers who worked on our campaign.
4 And there's a great amount of detail in
5 transitioning from my office of supervisor to the fourth
6 floor here in the sheriff's department, so there was a
7 great deal going on. Any one of those topics or themes
8 could have been part of their conversation. A great
9 deal was going on in my family and the people close to
10 my family.
11 MR. KEITH: Now, Commission, I'm going to make a
12 conditional motion to strike for lack of foundation.
13 I'm going to explore the foundation now to see whether
14 this is speculation on the part of the sheriff or
15 whether he has personal knowledge.
16 COMMISSIONER HUR: Conditional motion to strike?
17 MR. KEITH: Well, I --
18 COMMISSIONER HUR: That's overruled.
19 MR. KEITH: I'm going to make a motion to strike as
20 lacking foundation, then.
21 COMMISSIONER HUR: I think you invited the answer.
22 I'm going to overrule it.
23 MR. KEITH: Q. Okay. Sheriff, you've discussed
24 some of the things that were happening that week as
25 potential reasons for your wife's call with Linnette
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1 Peralta Haynes on the morning of January 4th.
2 A. As I just shared.
3 Q. Do you in fact know why that call occurred on
4 the morning of January 4th?
5 A. No, I -- I cannot speak for my wife or
6 Ms. Peralta Haynes.
7 Q. Between December 31st and January 4th, did
8 you ever mention Linnette Peralta Haynes to your wife?
9 A. I'm sure I had.
10 Q. And in what context did you mention Linnette
11 Peralta Haynes to your wife between December 31st and
12 January 4th?
13 A. As a principal partner in our post-campaign
14 infrastructure and preparing for the inaugural and
15 preparing for the dinner that I just mentioned.
16 Q. Did you ever mention to your wife between
17 December 31st and January 4th Linnette Peralta
18 Haynes' background in domestic violence?
19 A. I -- no.
20 Q. What contacts did you have with Linnette
21 Peralta Haynes between December 31st and the morning
22 of January 4th?
23 A. Very minimal. Some text messages and some
24 phonecalls, strictly related to the transition of our
25 office from supervisor to sheriff.
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Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 Q. Did any of your communications with
2 Ms. Peralta Haynes between the 31st and the morning of
3 January 4th mention any issues surrounding a conflict
4 between you and your wife?
5 A. No.
6 Q. That was completely absent?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, Sheriff, last night, we were looking at a
9 text message that you sent to your wife at 12:03 p.m. on
10 January 4th.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. "Left you a vm but didn't hear back. What
13 happened?"
14 And your testimony was that you were following up
15 on a voicema
il message that you had left. Correct?
16 A. In response to my wife, yes.
17 Q. Okay. And -- okay. So you did leave a
18 voicemail message that morning for your wife?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. And that voicemail message that you
21 left for your wife was in response to what?
22 A. As I said last night in the testimony, it was
23 very vague. And as I said, I was speculating it was
24 routine, probably having to do with our son.
25 Q. Okay. So is it your testimony that your wife
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Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 had left you a message earlier in the morning on
2 January 4th?
3 MR. WAGGONER: Objection, asked and answered.
4 COMMISSIONER HUR: I'll allow it. It is similar
5 ground we went over, so I hope that it's quick.
6 Overruled.
7 MR. KEITH: I'm just trying to get us up to speed
8 here.
9 COMMISSIONER HUR: Overruled.
10 THE WITNESS: I believe I was returning her call.
11 MR. KEITH: Q. Okay. And when had she left that
12 call -- left that message for you?
13 A. I do not have the record in front, so I -- I
14 cannot tell you.
15 Q. Was it a message that she had left for you on
16 January 4th?
17 A. If she had, it would have been in the morning,
18 yes.
19 MR. KEITH: Now I'm going to ask the Commission and
20 the sheriff to turn to Exhibit 83.
21 Ms. Kaiser, do we have a set of binders for the
22 witness?
23 MS. KAISER: Yes.
24 MR. KEITH: No, no, this is the right set. Okay.
25 Q. So Sheriff, would you please turn to
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1 Exhibit 83? It should be the last tab in the volume
2 that you have, which is Volume II of the mayor's
3 exhibits.
4 And just to explain to the Commission, this is an
5 exhibit of the mayor that is in evidence. It is a
6 compilation of information that's in the mayor's
7 possession regarding communications on January 4th
8 among -- I should say between Sheriff Mirkarimi and
9 Ms. Lopez, Ms. Williams, Ms. Madison, Mr. Mertens, and
10 Ms. Peralta Haynes, and likewise communications between
11 Ms. Lopez and the sheriff, Ms. Williams, Ms. Madison,
12 Mr. Mertens, and Ms. Peralta Haynes. It's a compilation
13 taken from the telephone records from AT&T as well as
14 those text messages that the mayor's office has. So
15 that is Exhibit 83.
16 COMMISSIONER HUR: So the names have been
17 substituted for the phone numbers?
18 MR. KEITH: That is correct.
19 Q. So Sheriff, I'm going to ask you to turn to
20 page 2 of Exhibit 83.
21 Now, Sheriff, can you see on the top line of that
22 exhibit?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Does that reflect the text message that you
25 sent to your wife at 12:03 p.m. on January 4th?
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Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 A. On page 3, I have here page 3 of 17.
2 Q. Oh. Sheriff, you should be on Exhibit 83, not
3 82. Sorry.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Okay. Are you on page 2 of Exhibit 83?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Okay. And you see that top line there --
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. -- reflects that 12:03 text message?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay. And that's referencing a voicemail that
12 you left for your wife?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay. Looking at page 1 of Exhibit 83 --
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. -- we have communications on January 4th
17 that occurred before 12:03 in the afternoon. These are
18 in chronological order. Do you see those?
19 A. I do.
20 Q. Okay. Now, as we go up the page, starting
21 from the bottom, the previous -- the next call prior to
22 the 12:03 text message that you sent that we see here
23 from you is a 9:33 a.m. phonecall that lasted 36
24 seconds. Do you see that?
25 A. I do.
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1 Q. Okay. Does that square with your memory of
2 when you -- when you left a voicemail message for your
3 wife?
4 A. I do not know if that was voicemail or if it
5 was direct contact.
6 Q. Okay. Do you have any reason to doubt -- were
7 you making calls to your wife on the morning of
8 January 4th from any other phone besides your cell
9 phone?
10 A. No, I don't believe so, but -- maybe one from
11 City Hall, but I doubt it. I think it was all cell
12 phone because I was en route to San Bruno.
13 Q. Do you recall being en route to San Bruno when
14 you left the voicemail message for your wife?
15 A. Again, I -- I'm not sure.
16 Q. Now, Sheriff, as we look at page 1 of
17 Exhibit 33 --
18 A. I'm sorry. 33 or 83?
19 Q. I'm sorry. I apologize. I meant Exhibit 83.
20 As we look at page 1 of Exhibit 83, are there any
21 calls from your wife to you shown on that exhibit?
22 A. Not that I see, no.
23 Q. So if we're looking at these records, there
24 was no call from your wife to you on the morning of
25 January 4th?
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Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And if there was no call from your wife to
3 you, there would be no voicemail message from your wife
4 to you on the morning of January 4th?
5 A. Unless I received a message through my office
6 here at City Hall, because I was here in my office, too,
7 on the second floor.
8 Q. Okay. Did you receive a message from your
9 wife through your office on the morning of January 4th?
10 A. Quite likely, I could have.
11 Q. Did you or didn't you?
12 MR. WAGGONER: Objection, asked and answered.
13 COMMISSIONER HUR: Overruled.
14 THE WITNESS: Quite likely.
15 MR. KEITH: Q. Did you or didn't you?
16 MR. WAGGONER: Objection, asked and answered.
17 COMMISSIONER HUR: Sheriff, do you remember whether
18 you received a call or not?
19 TH
E WITNESS: I don't remember if the call came
20 either through my office, because I was going back and
21 forth from second to fourth floor quite a bit and a lot
22 was happening that day.
23 COMMISSIONER HUR: So you don't have a specific
24 recollection of receiving this message?
25 THE WITNESS: From my wife?
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Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 COMMISSIONER HUR: Yes.
2 THE WITNESS: I received probably many messages in
3 some respect just throughout the day and days. But at
4 that specific time, no, I do not.
5 COMMISSIONER HUR: Okay. I think you have what you
6 need.
7 MR. KEITH: Q. Sheriff, was that 9:33 call from
8 you to your wife about your -- was the subject matter of
9 that call about her calling Linnette Peralta Haynes?
10 A. No, not at all.
11 Q. So Sheriff, if we're looking at Exhibit 3- --
12 Exhibit 83 and we look at that 9:33 a.m. call from you
13 to your wife that lasted 36 seconds, the next entry that
14 we see, at 10:55 a.m., is a text from your wife to
15 Linnette Peralta Haynes. Do you know what that text
16 message was about?
17 A. No, I don't. I don't have any text messages
18 between my wife and Linnette Peralta Haynes, not here.
19 Q. Did you talk to your wife later and find out
20 what that text message was about?
21 A. Later?
22 Q. At any time.
23 A. Well, not until the end of the day, when I was
24 informed much later. Late in the afternoon, I was
25 informed of all the happenings that were occurring. And
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Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 no, there was no specifics provided to me about any
2 conversation between my wife and Linnette Peralta
3 Haynes.
4 Q. Now, Sheriff, let's go back to the second page
5 of Exhibit 83. That's the page, again, that shows on
6 the top your text message to your wife, "Left you a vm
7 but didn't hear back. What happened?"
8 Sheriff, was that 12:03 text message to ask your
9 wife about what happened with her call with Linnette
10 Peralta Haynes?
11 MR. WAGGONER: Objection, asked and answered.
12 COMMISSIONER HUR: Overruled.
13 THE WITNESS: I -- no, I do not believe it is.
14 MR. KEITH: Q. Okay. And then if we look at the
15 next entry on Exhibit 83 after that 12:03 text message
16 asking your wife what happened, we see at 12:24 p.m., 21
17 minutes later, a text message from your wife to Ivory
18 Madison saying she's not going to call the police, she's
19 going to open a record with her doctor.
20 A. I see that, yes.
21 Q. Okay. And it is your testimony that there's
22 no connection between your 12:03 text message and your
23 wife's subsequent text message to Ivory Madison?
24 A. No connection at all.
25 Q. All right. Now, Sheriff, let's go back to
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Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 where we left off on January 4th yesterday. You told
2 us that after your budget committee meeting, you were
3 moving from office to office, from your supervisorial
4 office to the sheriff's office. Did you go home after
5 that move?
6 A. I quickly went home to grab -- I'm trying to
7 recall what time of the day, but I went home to grab
8 some papers and then just left.
9 Q. Okay. So when you went home, did you go out
10 to the back, to the back steps area of your house?
11 A. I did. The back door was open.
12 Q. Okay. And what did you see on the back steps
13 area of your house when you went out there after going
14 home?
15 A. My wife engaged in a conversation with the
16 upstairs neighbor.
17 Q. And the upstairs neighbor is Callie Williams?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Okay. At that time, what did you understand
20 their conversation to be about?
21 A. I didn't. I didn't stay long enough to have a
22 conversation. I said "Hi" and "Bye."
23 Q. Okay. Did you ask your wife to -- to come in
24 and talk with you after she was done?
25 A. I -- I didn't ask her to. She did, and it was
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Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 just simply to talk about the rest of the day as it
2 relates to picking up our son.
3 Q. So you didn't ask your wife to come back in
4 when she was done talking to Callie Williams?
5 A. I believe not. I believe my wife decided on
6 her own to just come in as I was leaving, because I was
7 quickly departing.
8 Q. Now, when your wife came back in, how -- how
9 long of a conversation did you have with her?
10 A. Maybe two minutes, maybe a minute.
11 Q. Did you talk at all about what your wife and
12 Callie Williams were discussing on the back steps?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Did you talk at all about your wife's earlier
15 conversation that morning with Linnette Peralta Haynes?
16 A. No.
17 Q. You mentioned that your conversation involved
18 picking up your son later in the day.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. Quick conversation.
22 Q. Was there anything else discussed between you
23 and your wife at that time?
24 A. Probably me just lamenting all the preparation
25 and kind of the normal chaos of transitioning offices
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Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 and being inaugurated four days away. But I was in and
2 out.
3 Q. And what was your wife's demeanor during that
4 conversation on January 4th when you were home
5 briefly?
6 A. Warm.
7 Q. She didn't seem concerned?
8 A. I think she was concerned about the overall
9 stress because of a great amount of demands that were
10 placed on us in preparing for a big transition.
11 Q. Okay. Sheriff, I just -- I just want to know
12 your impression of how your wife seemed to you, not --
13 not your view of why she may have been concerned. Did
14 she seem concerned during that conversation with her?
15 A. C
oncerned about what? Could you --
16 Q. Did she seem happy or did she seem worried?
17 A. As I said, I think she seemed warm.
18 Q. Okay. So she did not seem concerned in that
19 conversation that she had with you when you were home
20 briefly in the middle of the day on the 4th?
21 A. No.
22 Q. And did -- did your wife inform you of what
23 her plans were for the rest of the day during that
24 conversation?
25 A. No.
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Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 Q. Did you inform her what your plans were for
2 the rest of the day after that conversation?
3 A. Well, as I said, to return to get some papers
4 to go back to City Hall.
5 Q. Okay. Anything else? Did you say anything
6 else to your wife about your plans for that afternoon
7 during that conversation?
8 A. I may have reminded her about an event that
9 was being thrown in my honor late -- later that
10 afternoon as I was exiting. There was an event planned
11 for me as the former chair of LAFCo.
12 Q. That was the Sol y Luna event that was going
13 to -- that was scheduled to occur around 5:30 in the
14 afternoon?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Where did you go after you left -- now, do you
17 have an estimate of approximately when you left your
18 home, what time in the afternoon that day?
19 A. I -- I don't. I'm sorry.
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. But I was there very short. Like I said, a
22 couple minutes.
23 Q. Okay. And when you -- when you left home,
24 where did you go?
25 A. City Hall.
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Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 Q. Okay. How did you get to City Hall?
2 A. I believe I drove. I was darting back and
3 forth, but I often walked from my home to City Hall too.
4 Q. Do you recall one way or the other?
5 A. I believe I drove.
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. I believe I did.
8 Q. And when you got to City Hall on the afternoon
9 of the 4th, approximately what time was it?
10 A. Maybe 2:00 something, maybe. Maybe later.
11 Q. Where did you go when you got to City Hall
12 that afternoon?
13 A. Well, I would go to my second-floor office and
14 then I would go to the fourth floor, here, between the
15 sheriff and the supervisor's office.
16 Q. And what were you doing?
17 A. As I shared earlier, we were transitioning out
18 of offices. I was required to vacate my office by
19 Friday, January 6th, so there was a lot of demand for
20 us to be out of our office by Friday, January 6, so that
21 we then made preparations for transition. So there was
22 a lot of responsibility placed on my staff, us, and
23 requirements that we vacate by 5:00 o'clock on Friday
24 the 6th.
25 Q. And so what were you actually doing as part of
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Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 these -- these efforts to vacate your Board of
2 Supervisors office that afternoon?
3 A. Well, having to negotiate furniture, files,
4 papers, where things were being sent from my office
5 downstairs to the offices up here, where they weren't
6 entirely ready because they were painting the offices up
7 here, and making room and accommodations. So like any
8 time when somebody moves, it's a little distressful.
9 Q. So were you directing those efforts to move
10 that afternoon?
11 A. I wouldn't say I was directing, but I was
12 certainly monitoring.
13 Q. What else were you doing that afternoon?
14 A. Taking care of business with regard to
15 cleaning up as a supervisor and in preparation for
16 coming into the office of sheriff.
17 Q. Did you have any immediate scheduled meetings
18 that afternoon at City Hall?
19 A. Impromptu, I believe. People came in all the
20 time, which is quite routine anyway as a public servant,
21 as a supervisor, and a lot of people were coming in and
22 stopping me along the way, congratulating me and
23 thanking me and -- and just sharing their well wishes.
24 Q. Who are some of those people that you saw on
25 the afternoon of January 4th in City Hall?
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Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 A. People around, supervisors, fellow
2 supervisors, or other staff and just constituents.
3 Q. Can you provide some -- can you provide any
4 names?
5 A. I'll have to think about it.
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. I'll have to think about it. People come in
8 the supervisors' offices all the time. That's quite a
9 normal existence.
10 Q. I'm asking you to tell -- to give us names of
11 the people who you spoke with in City Hall on the
12 afternoon of January 4th.
13 A. Clerk staff. Clerk staff. Potentially clerk
14 staff like Ms. Angela Calvillo, clerk of the board,
15 relating to my own staff, and others, yes.
16 Q. Okay. You mentioned one name, Angela
17 Calvillo. You spoke with her on the afternoon of
18 January 4th while you were attending to your supervisor
19 duties?
20 A. Yes, I believe I did, and probably other
21 members of the clerk of the board.
22 Q. Can you give me more names than Angela
23 Calvillo? Can you give us all of the names of the
24 people who you spoke with during that time period?
25 MR. WAGGONER: Objection, asked and answered.
744
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 THE WITNESS: No, I can't.
2 COMMISSIONER HUR: Okay. I want to say one thing,
3 a couple of things. First of all, Mr. Waggoner,
4 actually, we have a microphone here. I think it would
5 probably be helpful if you used it to make objections,
6 so that everybody can hear. Is that acceptable? Would
7 you mind moving over there?
8 The second thing I'd like to say, and we said it
9 last night, we're now in a very sensitive part of the
10 hearing where we have testimony coming from witnesses,
11 and so we're going to have to be very strict about
12 comments and outbursts
from the crowd. I understand you
13 may have -- you may feel like you want to have a
14 reaction, and that's natural, but I -- I would ask you
15 to restrain yourself because it is important that we
16 have silence so that we can focus on the witness and the
17 questions.
18 If there is an outburst, I'm directing the sheriff
19 to please remove that person from the proceedings.
20 Thank you.
21 MR. KEITH: Q. Sheriff, where were you when you
22 first learned that there was a police investigation of
23 the incident on January -- on -- excuse me. Where were
24 you when you first learned there was a police
25 investigation of the incident between you and your wife
745
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 on -- that occurred on December 31st?
2 A. I received a phonecall from my wife sometime
3 after 4:00 p.m. on January 4, and she alluded that there
4 was some happening involving the police and the neighbor
5 and she wanted to come and talk with me. So it was
6 after 4:00 o'clock on January 4th that I first learned
7 of any of this.
8 Q. Where you when you learned?
9 A. City Hall.
10 Q. Where in City Hall?
11 A. I believe it was my second-floor office.
12 Q. Okay. Your old supervisor's office?
13 A. Yes, but it was my supervisor's office still.
14 Q. Who was with you when you learned about that?
15 A. Well, I'm sure my staff was present, but it
16 wasn't a conference call, so nobody specifically was
17 with me. I received a direct phonecall.
18 Q. Had you received text messages from your wife
19 prior to actually speaking with her on the phone that
20 afternoon about the police investigation?
21 A. No, I don't believe so. No.
22 Q. Had you received text messages from Linnette
23 Peralta Haynes that afternoon before speaking with your
24 wife about that investigation?
25 A. Only in a very vague way. I believe, if I
746
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 recall correctly, that the text messages said, "Call me.
2 It's an emergency. Call me." That's all I had seen.
3 Q. So Sheriff, I want to go back to Exhibit 83.
4 We're on page 2 of Exhibit 83.
5 Now, Sheriff, if we go down to 3:47 p.m., we see a
6 text message from Ms. Peralta Haynes to you that says,
7 "Can you call me. It is urgent. Regarding Eliana."
8 Did you see that text message before or after
9 speaking with your wife that afternoon?
10 A. After.
11 Q. How do you know that you didn't -- that you
12 saw that text message after speaking with your wife that
13 afternoon?
14 A. Because I was putting this all together when
15 my wife informed me after 4:00 o'clock and it all became
16 more clear what was happening, and that was within the
17 next, if I'm not mistaken, about 20, 25 minutes from
18 when my wife had called me.
19 Q. Now, Sheriff, I want to be -- I want to be
20 clear in my -- in my question about this. What I
21 understood you to say was that at least you understood
22 the import of this text message after you spoke with
23 your wife, but my -- but I want to make sure that I
24 understand whether you saw this text message before you
25 spoke with your wife.
747
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 A. No, I -- I don't believe I did.
2 Q. Okay. And then we have another text message
3 immediately below that at 3:53 p.m. from Ms. Peralta
4 Haynes to you, stating, "I need to talk to you to
5 protect you. Call me."
6 Do you see that text message?
7 A. I do.
8 Q. Okay. Did you see that text message before
9 you learned about this investigation from your wife in a
10 phonecall?
11 A. No, or else if I had seen the earlier one, I
12 would have responded.
13 Q. When you say you would have responded, meaning
14 you would have put in a call?
15 A. I would have replied in some fashion, I guess.
16 Q. Okay. So upon seeing this type of message,
17 your natural response would have been to reply to it,
18 whether by text message or by telephone?
19 A. Yes, generally.
20 Q. Now, Sheriff, you may not have -- earlier, we
21 discussed whether you had ever referred to Linnette
22 Peralta Haynes as a domestic violence advocate. You
23 said that you had never personally described Ms. Peralta
24 Haynes that way.
25 A. I don't believe I had, no. I knew of some of
748
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 her background, but that wasn't her relationship with
2 me.
3 Q. Okay. Now, this text message from Ms. Peralta
4 Haynes at 3:53 p.m. says, "I need to talk to you to
5 protect you. Call me."
6 Do domestic violence advocates normally protect
7 victims or perpetrators of domestic violence?
8 MR. WAGGONER: Objection, calls for speculation.
9 COMMISSIONER HUR: Sustained. There's no
10 foundation.
11 MR. KEITH: Q. So Sheriff, you are aware of media
12 portrayals of Ms. Peralta Haynes as a domestic violence
13 advocate. Correct?
14 A. I have heard of references.
15 Q. Okay. But to you, Ms. Peralta Haynes is a
16 campaign manager and political consultant?
17 MR. WAGGONER: Objection, asked and answered.
18 COMMISSIONER HUR: I think you've established that
19 fact.
20 MR. KEITH: Q. Now, Sheriff, if we look further in
21 Exhibit 83, if we look on page 3, we see a text message
22 from your wife to you at 4:18 p.m. in the afternoon
23 stating, "Call me. It is an emergency."
24 Do you see that?
25 A. I do.
749
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 Q. Do you recall receiving that text message from
2 your wife?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And when did you -- did you -- what did you do
5 in response to that text message from your wife?
6 A. Well, I believe we spoke not long after that.
7 Q. And actually, if we look do
wn on Exhibit 83,
8 at 4:23 p.m., we see a call from you to your wife.
9 A. Yes, five minutes later.
10 Q. Right. So was that -- would that call be in
11 response to her text message?
12 A. I believe my wife was following up, correct,
13 from her message.
14 Q. Well, the call shows that it's from you to
15 your wife, not your wife to you. Do you see that?
16 A. It says zero seconds, though.
17 COMMISSIONER HUR: Mr. Keith, there are three calls
18 at that time, so if you could --
19 MR. KEITH: Oh, right.
20 COMMISSIONER HUR: -- be a little clearer.
21 MR. KEITH: Q. So Sheriff, it shows -- okay. So
22 there's three calls shown at 4:23 p.m.
23 A. Yes. There -- apparently, I was trying to
24 return my wife's call, unable to get through, so I had
25 made several attempts.
750
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 Q. Right. And then she ends up calling you and
2 that's where we see a --
3 A. At 4:23 p.m. I had called her twice at 4:23,
4 did not connect with her because it says zero seconds
5 and then 17 seconds, and then I suppose within that
6 minute she called me back.
7 Q. Okay. So you had attempted to call your wife
8 and then she basically called you, whether it's lines
9 crossed or -- or any other explanation, but immediately
10 after you tried to call her?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay. So when you called your wife, had you
13 just read the text message from her?
14 A. When I made the phonecall, yes.
15 Q. And at that time, had you also seen the text
16 messages that had come in from Ms. Haynes earlier?
17 A. Quite possibly when I was able to review my
18 phone, yes. I see that I had text messages and I needed
19 to, I guess, respond.
20 Q. Okay. And what did your wife tell you in that
21 4:23 phonecall?
22 A. That -- she told me that the neighbors next
23 door -- Ms. Madison was pursuing a complaint with the
24 police. She had made mention of a video which I just
25 learned about for the first time, and she was very
751
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 concerned, very, very concerned, and wanted to come and
2 meet me and talk with me. And that was pretty much the
3 extent of the conversation.
4 Q. Okay. And were you in your supervisor's
5 office when you had that call with your wife?
6 A. I believe I was either in Room -- either Room
7 2 or Room -- I mean, second floor or fourth floor,
8 because I was going back and forth.
9 Q. Okay. Was there anyone around when you were
10 speaking with your wife for that five-minute telephone
11 call?
12 A. There were many people around because people
13 were moving.
14 Q. Do you recall any specific names?
15 A. Well, my staff certainly was around.
16 Q. Were they in the room when you were making
17 that call with your wife? Was anyone else in the room?
18 A. Well, our doors are really never closed, so
19 people come in and out. Staff like Vallie Brown or Rob,
20 Robert Selna. Those are two of my principal staff
21 people. And we had volunteers, and Rick Galbreath. But
22 yet, as I said, I was going back and forth between the
23 second and fourth floor, and on the fourth floor would
24 have been Sheriff's secretary Susan Fahey and
25 Undersheriff Jan Dempsey. She may have left already by
752
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 that time.
2 Q. Now, Sheriff, you -- you've given a list of
3 several people who may have been around. Do you have a
4 specific recollection of any -- of any individual who
5 definitely was around at the time that you had that
6 telephone call with your wife?
7 A. Could you be more clear when you say "around"?
8 Q. Okay. In the -- next to you when you made
9 that call with your wife.
10 A. Next to me. No, I -- I do not.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. But I do believe there were people in and out
13 of our office quite a bit because they were working.
14 Q. Were there people within earshot when you made
15 that call with your wife at 4:23?
16 A. I'm sure there were.
17 Q. Can you identify positively any of those
18 people within earshot at the time you had that call with
19 your wife at 4:23?
20 A. I cannot.
21 Q. Now, Sheriff, you sat down with the -- with
22 the Bay Guardian in April for a story about the events
23 that had occurred on December 31st and the ensuing
24 police investigation?
25 A. Yes.
753
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 Q. Which reporter did you sit down with?
2 MR. WAGGONER: Objection, relevance.
3 COMMISSIONER HUR: Overruled. It's about the
4 subject matter.
5 THE WITNESS: There were three people present:
6 Bruce Brugmann, Tim Redmond, Steve Jones. And actually,
7 there was a woman present, but I -- I didn't know her.
8 MR. KEITH: Q. Who else was present?
9 A. Oh, a man named Jeff Gillenkirk, Dave -- David
10 Waggoner, and Kitty Kleisner, I think is the last name.
11 Q. And how long was that meeting that you had
12 with Bay Guardian reporters?
13 A. It was about -- it was over an hour.
14 Q. So Sheriff, I want to read you a short passage
15 from that -- from that story, and you can -- you can
16 tell me whether it's -- whether it's accurate or not.
17 A. Please.
18 Q. Now, this is referring to what -- what
19 happened after you found out about -- about the police
20 investigation from your wife, just to give you some
21 context.
22 MR. WAGGONER: Objection, lacks foundation.
23 COMMISSIONER HUR: Sustained.
24 MR. KEITH: Okay.
25 Q. Well, Sheriff, I'll just -- I'll just simply
754
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 read the story and you can tell me. I'll read this
2 passage and you can tell me whether it's true or not.
3 MR. WAGGONER: Objection, la
cks foundation.
4 COMMISSIONER HUR: Sustained. Counsel, you haven't
5 established what you're -- what it is. There's no
6 foundation. Sustained.
7 MR. KEITH: Oh.
8 COMMISSIONER HUR: Can we establish -- can you
9 establish what the document is? We haven't seen it; the
10 witness hasn't seen it. I mean, you're ask- -- we have
11 no idea what you're reading from.
12 MR. KEITH: Oh, I'm not -- I'm not offering this
13 into evidence. I just want the witness's testimony
14 based on some -- his telling me whether something is
15 true or not. I'm not offering the document.
16 COMMISSIONER HUR: That's fine, but I think it's
17 more fair for you to show it to the witness.
18 MR. KEITH: Okay.
19 COMMISSIONER HUR: And frankly, I'd like to see it
20 too if you're going to be reading from it.
21 MR. KEITH: All right. Well, I have -- I do have a
22 copy for the witness.
23 COMMISSIONER HUR: Okay. Do you have a copy for
24 counsel as well?
25 MR. KEITH: No, but I'm happy to show -- show it to
755
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 counsel.
2 Q. Sheriff, I'm going to -- I'm going to make a
3 box around what I'm going to read to you so that you can
4 follow it.
5 So Sheriff, again, I want to just read this to you,
6 and you can -- you can tell me whether it's -- whether
7 it's accurate.
8 "They made a couple calls to find an attorney, and
9 he said Lopez had the idea of having their friend,
10 Linnette Peralta Haynes, a domestic violence advocate
11 with the Our Family Coalition, reach out to Madison
12 about why she had gone to police and what could be done
13 at that point. 'I had no idea what they were going to
14 talk about,' Mirkarimi claims."
15 COMMISSIONER HUR: What's the question?
16 MR. KEITH: Q. So the question is is that an
17 accurate account of what occurred in the conversation
18 between you and your wife after you learned about this
19 incident, about the police investigation?
20 A. Which part?
21 Q. Well, let's take it step by step.
22 A. Okay.
23 Q. So at -- well, let me -- I can step --
24 COMMISSIONER HUR: I'm sorry --
25 MR. KEITH: Q. -- back a moment.
756
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 COMMISSIONER HUR: I'm sorry to interrupt you. Do
2 you have a copy you can put on the promo so we can see
3 it?
4 MR. KEITH: I do not. I'm sorry. I just -- I just
5 have the copy -- I have this copy for the witness.
6 COMMISSIONER HUR: That's fine. Sorry to interrupt
7 you. Go ahead.
8 MR. KEITH: No, that's okay.
9 Q. The -- so Sheriff, after you got this call
10 from your wife, did you make a plan about what to do
11 next, about meeting your wife?
12 A. About -- my wife asked if we could meet and I
13 said "Yes," so that -- to the extent of a plan, yes.
14 Q. Okay. And did you meet your wife shortly
15 after this call?
16 A. I think it was within about the next 20 or 25
17 minutes. She had walked to City Hall, and I met her
18 outside on the Grove side.
19 Q. Okay. And then when you met your wife outside
20 the Grove side, did you have a conversation there?
21 A. We did.
22 Q. Okay. How long were you on the Grove side of
23 City Hall outside, speaking with your wife?
24 A. Well, it was -- it was one block up. I saw
25 her coming down. She seemed concerned. I could feel
757
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 that, especially from the earlier conversation that we
2 had just had on the phone. And so I met her about a
3 block on Grove. I would say about 20 minutes, 20, 25
4 minutes.
5 Q. Okay. And was it -- did anybody join the
6 conversation between you and your wife during those 20
7 to 25 minutes?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Okay. Just you and your wife?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay. So going back to that passage that I
12 read, I want to take it step by step, and you can tell
13 me whether this is accurate. "They made a couple calls
14 to find an attorney."
15 Is that accurate? Did you and your wife make a
16 couple of calls to find an attorney at that time?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. That is not accurate. It was much later.
20 Q. Okay. When did you make a couple of calls to
21 find an attorney?
22 A. Oh, probably had to be after 6:00. Six. Six,
23 5:30, 6:00, 6:30, maybe.
24 Q. Was it before or after that LAFCo event that
25 you had referenced earlier that you made calls to find
758
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 an attorney?
2 A. It was a conversation. And the first
3 conversation of that day that I had with Ms. Haynes,
4 Linnette Peralta Haynes, was a recommendation as I was
5 on my way to the LAFCo event about an attorney, but I
6 could not complete the conversation because I was
7 already terribly late for that event.
8 Q. Okay. And then the next part of this passage,
9 after the part that says "They made a couple calls to
10 find an attorney," the next part is, "and he said Lopez
11 had the idea of having their friend, Linnette Peralta
12 Haynes, a domestic violence advocate with the Our Family
13 Coalition, reach out to Madison about why she had gone
14 to police and what could be done at that point."
15 Is that accurate?
16 A. Not entirely, no, it's not.
17 Q. How is it inaccurate?
18 A. That I only had learned later in the day, when
19 my wife, Eliana, had informed me of her conversations
20 between she and Linnette and their contact then with the
21 next-door neighbor.
22 Q. And did your wife have the idea of having
23 Linnette Peralta Haynes contact Ivory Madison?
24 A. I am not sure about that. If that is the
25 case, that is something that my wife had simply
759
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 exchanged with Ms. Haynes, but I don't know.
2 Q. So did you have any part in the decision to
3 call Ivory Madison?
4 A. Not at all.
5 Q. So to the extent that this story characterizes
6 you as having participated in that decision to call
7 Linnette Peralta Haynes, you disagree with that?
8 A. I do. In fact, as the Guardian can probably
9 tell you, I even made a call later that day, when this
10 had hit the web, and I had -- had articulated my concern
11 about some of the accuracy on this. But it remained.
12 Q. Okay. Were there other aspects of the article
13 that you expressed concerns about with regard to
14 accuracy? I mean, you don't need to tell me them. I
15 just want to know, were there other inaccuracies in the
16 article that you believe that you found?
17 A. I believe that this is what stood out. And
18 this section, it stood out the most to me, but there
19 might have been, yes.
20 Q. So Sheriff, tell me about more about the
21 20-minute conversation that you had with your wife when
22 you were outside City Hall. What -- what was discussed
23 in that conversation?
24 A. Well, I was listening, mostly. My wife had
25 proceeded to tell me about what was happening with the
760
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 neighbor. She informed me about the existence of this
2 video. I did not know about it. And then she told me
3 that she felt betrayed by the neighbors because they
4 went forward to call authorities.
5 I could see my wife was scared, concerned, and
6 angry of what the neighbor was doing. I was informed
7 that my wife had this relationship with the neighbor as
8 if the neighbor was her attorney -- I did not know
9 that -- in the respect that Ms. Madison had been either
10 contracted or there was an arrangement for her to act as
11 an attorney for my wife. And my wife was suggesting to
12 me that -- you know, she was asking me, because she was
13 not familiar with the system, of what can we do about
14 this.
15 And I was just trying to absorb it all, process
16 what was happening. But I was very clear with my wife
17 that -- and I remember the quote that I said to her. I
18 said, "This bell -- you can't unring this bell, and we
19 must follow through with this process."
20 Q. Now, there was a call that you had later with
21 Ms. Peralta Haynes?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. What was discussed in that call with
24 Ms. Peralta Haynes?
25 A. Well, this is the first phonecall I had with
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Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 Ms. Peralta Haynes, direct contact. And it's on a
2 little bit of her also informing me of what she knew
3 about of what occurred in her conversation with my wife,
4 Eliana, and then the next-door neighbor. It wasn't a
5 long conversation.
6 And again, I was listening because I'm learning of
7 all this for the first time, first through my wife and
8 then Ms. Peralta Haynes, so I am taking in information.
9 Q. Now, at the time when you had that telephone
10 call -- well, actually, let me -- let me step back for a
11 moment.
12 Did Ms. Peralta Haynes inform you of a conversation
13 that she had with Ivory Madison?
14 A. She did.
15 Q. Okay. Was that in the first call that you had
16 with her that afternoon?
17 A. We're almost in the evening now, so could you
18 be a little more specific?
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. It's in the evening.
21 Q. All right. Was it in the first call that you
22 had with Linnette Peralta Haynes that she informed you
23 that she had had a conversation with Ivory Madison?
24 A. I don't remember if it was first or second,
25 but I could possibly refresh my memory if I look at the
762
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 log.
2 Q. Okay.
3 A. Is that okay?
4 Counsel, maybe you can help me as to which time are
5 we talking about. I see 5:20 p.m. I'm sorry.
6 5:20 p.m. is a five-second phonecall. Five-twenty --
7 the first phonecall I had with Ms. Peralta Haynes was at
8 5:24 p.m. Are we in agreement?
9 Q. Sheriff, you're just looking at this to
10 refresh your recollection, so I just want to let you
11 testify as to what your recollection is.
12 A. Okay. Well, I want to be accurate. So --
13 COMMISSIONER HUR: Okay. Let's -- let's -- I do
14 think it is important that -- that we're accurate here.
15 I see a call at 5:12 p.m. from Ross Mirkarimi to
16 Linnette Haynes. Is that the call that -- that the
17 question is about, Mr. Keith? Or is there -- is there
18 one earlier that you're referring to in your
19 questioning?
20 MR. KEITH: The question, if I recall -- if I
21 recall what it exactly was, the question was what time
22 did the sheriff have a call with Ms. Peralta Haynes
23 where he found out that she had had a conversation with
24 Ms. Madison, and so this is to assist him in -- in
25 recollecting. I wasn't trying to pin down when the
763
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 first call was, but when the call was regarding this,
2 this particular conversation that Ms. Peralta Haynes had
3 had with Ms. Madison.
4 COMMISSIONER HUR: Okay. Do you have the question
5 in mind, sir?
6 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do.
7 COMMISSIONER HUR: Okay.
8 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
9 Yes, I believe so, that this is the first I'm
10 learning of contact between my wife, Ms. Peralta Haynes,
11 and then, I think, Ms. Madison.
12 MR. KEITH: Q. Was that in the first call that you
13 had with Ms. Madison reflected in the record? I'm
14 sorry. Let me rephrase that.
15 Was that in the first call with Ms. Peralta Haynes
16 that we have here reflected in Exhibit 83?
17 A. At 5:12 p.m.? Maybe. Maybe, because there
18 wasn't a lot of time to go into detail at all. But I
19 will say maybe.
20 Q. Okay. If it was -- and was it -- was it in
21 the first or
second -- let me -- was it -- was it in a
22 call that you had with Ms. Peralta Haynes before you got
23 to the LAFCo meeting that you found out about that she
24 had had a conversation with Ms. Madison?
25 A. I remember that I was walking feverishly to
764
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 the LAFCo event because I was getting calls from people
2 there. Where am I? "You're late. You're late."
3 And I did have a phonecall with Ms. Peralta Haynes
4 while I was en route to Sol y Luna.
5 Q. Okay. And it was -- was that -- was it -- was
6 it in one of the conversations that you had with
7 Ms. Peralta Haynes before you got to Sol y Luna --
8 A. There was only --
9 Q. -- that she told you about the -- the
10 conversation that she had with Ivory Madison?
11 A. You know, maybe. Maybe. Because there was
12 only really one phonecall that I had with Ms. Haynes
13 where we connected. There had been some attempts, but
14 only one, I think, by the time I got to Sol y Luna.
15 Q. So was it at some point in the late afternoon
16 or evening of January 4th that you learned from
17 Ms. Peralta Haynes that she had had a conversation with
18 Ivory Madison earlier that afternoon?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. What did Ms. Peralta Haynes tell you
21 about the content of that conversation with Ms. Madison?
22 A. It was very brief, very, very brief. She said
23 that Ms. Madison was apparently trying to -- she wasn't
24 listening to Eliana. Eliana was very concerned, scared,
25 and she thinks -- she thought the neighbor was crazy.
765
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 Q. This is -- this is what Ms. Peralta Haynes
2 thought?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What she informed you?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. And then she was characterizing -- she thought
8 the neighbor was just crazy, and she was very concerned
9 for Eliana.
10 Q. Did Ms. Peralta Haynes tell you about anything
11 that she suggested to the neighbor?
12 A. No, she didn't. She told me that she -- the
13 one phrase I remember, she said to the neighbor, "Please
14 respect Eliana."
15 Q. And "Please respect Eliana" meaning "don't
16 call the police about a domestic violence incident"?
17 A. No, she never qualified that to me. She just
18 said, "Please respect Eliana."
19 COMMISSIONER HUR: I'm sorry. I'm confused.
20 You're saying that Ms. Haynes told you that she
21 said that to Ms. Madison?
22 THE WITNESS: That's what I recall.
23 MR. KEITH: Q. Did Ms. Haynes express an opinion
24 to you about what she thought about Ms. Madison calling
25 the police?
766
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 A. No, except the fact that she thought
2 Ms. Madison was -- it looked like was trying to hurt
3 Eliana and/or she was -- she didn't know what was going
4 on.
5 Q. So did Ms. Peralta Haynes express concern
6 about the im- -- the impact on you of the existence of a
7 police investigation?
8 A. She did, yes.
9 Q. What did she say?
10 A. To be aware that this is happening, but she
11 didn't really have to say anything. Just noting that
12 myself, I knew that that would have impact.
13 Q. Now, Sheriff, is domestic violence a laughing
14 matter?
15 A. Of course not.
16 Q. When people joke about domestic violence, they
17 devalue victims?
18 A. I think so.
19 Q. When people joke about domestic violence, they
20 make light of something that's in fact a serious crime?
21 MR. WAGGONER: Objection, relevance.
22 COMMISSIONER HUR: I'm going to overrule it.
23 THE WITNESS: Rephrase, please.
24 MR. KEITH: Q. When people joke about domestic
25 violence, they make light of something that's in fact a
767
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 serious crime?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You made a joke about domestic violence at
4 your inauguration.
5 MR. WAGGONER: Objection, states facts not in
6 evidence.
7 THE WITNESS: I did not make a joke --
8 COMMISSIONER HUR: Overruled.
9 THE WITNESS: -- about domestic violence.
10 THE REPORTER: I'm sorry, Sheriff. I didn't
11 understand.
12 THE WITNESS: I said I did not make a joke about
13 domestic violence. I would not.
14 MR. KEITH: Q. You didn't refer in a humorous
15 fashion to the existence of a police investigation of
16 what happened on December 31st?
17 A. Please clarify.
18 Q. Okay. Did you refer in a humorous way at your
19 inauguration speech to the police investigation that was
20 ongoing about what you did on December 31st?
21 A. If I did, that was certainly wrong of me, but
22 the answer is I don't believe I did at all.
23 MR. KEITH: Okay. For the commission, I'd like to
24 play a video at this point. In terms -- it's something
25 that we're happy to submit and mark and we can -- I
768
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 think our next exhibit in order would be Exhibit 24.
2 I'm sorry. 84.
3 COMMISSIONER HUR: Have you informed opposing
4 counsel what you're planning to show?
5 MR. KEITH: I have not.
6 COMMISSIONER HUR: What is it?
7 MR. KEITH: It's a -- it's a clip from the
8 Sheriff's inauguration speech.
9 COMMISSIONER HUR: And what is the purpose of the
10 request to play it?
11 MR. KEITH: Well, it's admissible as a party
12 admission. But it's -- he's making a joke about the
13 police investigation.
14 COMMISSIONER HUR: So you're -- you think it's a
15 prior inconsistent statement?
16 MR. KEITH: As well as a party admission.
17 COMMISSIONER HUR: Okay. Any objection?
18 MR. WAGGONER: If I may have a moment?
19 COMMISSIONER HUR: Please.
20 Counsel, do you have a transcript of it or -- I
21 mean, typically --
22 MR. KEITH: I -- I don't have a transcript of it.
23 COMMISSIONER HUR: Counsel?
24 MR. KOPP: It's a little hard -- I'm sorry. It's a
25 little hard to know whether or not we should object
769
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 since we haven't seen it.
2 COMMISSIONER HUR: Yeah. I mean, if it's a
3 statement from your client, it's likely to come in. If
4 it's -- if you have an objection subsequently, we're not
5 a jury. We can -- we can disregard it if legally we
6 should.
7 MR. KEITH: And certainly if they believe that it's
8 incomplete and more needs to be shown, they have an
9 opportunity to.
10 COMMISSIONER HUR: Right. You'll have an
11 opportunity on redirect.
12 UNKNOWN MAN: Let me see if I can get this on the
13 screen.
14 MR. KEITH: Thank you.
15 (Video played as follows:
16 SHERIFF MIRKARIMI: ". . . reeducate
17 people what the sheriff's office does.
18 And like here today, I was even afraid,
19 like during the election itself, that we
20 would garner little media attention, but I
21 think we took care of that.
22 "The sheriff's department, the sheriff's
23 department that I walked into, is" --
24 MR. KEITH: Q. Sheriff, is joking about a domestic
25 violence investigation the right thing for a sheriff to
770
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 do?
2 MR. WAGGONER: Objection --
3 THE WITNESS: I --
4 MR. WAGGONER: -- lacks foundation.
5 THE WITNESS: I did not joke about domestic
6 violence.
7 COMMISSIONER HUR: I will overrule the objection.
8 The answer is in.
9 MR. KEITH: Q. What was that joke about?
10 A. Breaking ice with a very stressful situation
11 that was being narrated by the press.
12 Q. That was a reference to the ongoing interest
13 in what happened between you and your wife on
14 December 31st?
15 A. That was referring specifically to the media.
16 Q. It was referring to the media's interest in
17 what happened on December 31st between you and your
18 wife?
19 A. It was referring to the media.
20 Q. Just the media in general?
21 A. Just what that clip said. It was referring to
22 the media, to the press, and I was making light of a
23 situation which was stressful and tension-based about
24 there being any interest in the inaugural proceedings.
25 Q. You knew that the basis for the media interest
771
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 in those inaugural proceedings was their interest in
2 what happened on December 31st between you and your
3 wife?
4 A. Not necessarily.
5 Q. You think that the media was so interested in
6 those proceedings because of some other issue?
7 A. That I was being inaugurated the 35th
8 Sheriff of the City and County of San Francisco, the
9 first time that there had been an open election for
10 sheriff in 32 years? I would hope that too.
11 Q. Sheriff, when you made that joke, what were
12 you referring to?
13 MR. WAGGONER: Objection, asked and answered.
14 COMMISSIONER HUR: I'm not sure we've gotten a
15 clear answer. Overruled.
16 THE WITNESS: Simply referring to the media
17 interest because there had been a lot of media interest,
18 but not making light of domestic violence, not at all.
19 MR. KEITH: Q. Were you referring to the media
20 interest in what happened between you and your wife on
21 December 31st?
22 MR. WAGGONER: Objection, asked and answered.
23 COMMISSIONER HUR: Overruled.
24 THE WITNESS: I answered the question, and I
25 believe that I was referring to the media interest of
772
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 the inaugural and all the reasons that may have brought
2 them to the inaugural.
3 MR. KEITH: Q. Did those reasons that brought the
4 media to the inaugural and garnered -- and generated
5 media interest in the inaugural include what happened
6 between you and your wife on December 31st?
7 A. I cannot speak for the media. I only spoke to
8 the size of the media, and there was a sizable
9 contingent of media. That was my reference.
10 Q. Sheriff, you know that there was a sizable
11 contingent of media because of what happened between you
12 and your wife on December 31st and the police
13 investigation of that, do you not?
14 A. That could very well be.
15 Q. That was your assumption when you made that
16 remark, was it not?
17 A. That could very well be about the interest in
18 our inaugural.
19 Q. I didn't ask about the media. I asked about
20 what your assumption was about why the media was there
21 when you made that remark at your inauguration.
22 MR. WAGGONER: Objection, argumentative.
23 COMMISSIONER HUR: Sheriff, I think we could move
24 on if we just got a clear answer from you on this.
25 THE WITNESS: Well, I'm speculating, but
773
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 my reason --
2 COMMISSIONER HUR: He's asking about your -- what
3 you were thinking when you made that remark. Were you
4 referring to the media attention that was -- resulted
5 from the investigation of the incident on
6 December 31st?
7 THE WITNESS: I was -- yes.
8 COMMISSIONER HUR: Okay. Let's move on.
9 MR. KEITH: Q. Sheriff, is domestic violence a
10 private, family matter?
11 A. It is not.
12 Q. When law enforcement treats domestic violence
13 as a private, family matter, it continues.
14 A. Is this a question?
15 Q. It is.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. When law enforcement treats domestic violence
18 as a private, family matter, it escalates?
19 MR. WAGGONER: Obj
ection, calls for speculation.
20 COMMISSIONER HUR: Do you know, Sheriff?
21 THE WITNESS: Yes.
22 MR. KEITH: Q. Would you agree that when law
23 enforcement tells the public that domestic violence is a
24 private, family matter, that sends the wrong message to
25 victims?
774
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And would you agree that when law enforcement
3 announces that domestic violence is a private, family
4 matter, that sends the wrong message to perpetrators?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Sheriff, you were asked a question after your
7 inauguration by the media about the ongoing
8 investigation of the December 31st incident, were you
9 not?
10 A. I was asked a number of questions when I made
11 a statement, yes.
12 Q. And that -- and the statement that you made
13 was in response to a number of questions about that
14 December 31st incident?
15 A. I initiated the press conference with a
16 statement --
17 Q. Okay.
18 A. -- not in response.
19 Q. During that press conference, were you asked
20 about what happened on December 31st between you and
21 your wife?
22 A. I believe so.
23 Q. And in response to one of those questions, you
24 called domestic violence -- excuse me.
25 In response to one of those questions, you answered
775
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 that it was a private, family matter?
2 A. I believe I did.
3 Q. Should the sheriff be referring to a violent
4 incident that's under investigation between a man and
5 his wife as a private, family matter?
6 A. No.
7 Q. We just discussed all the negative effects of
8 law enforcement calling domestic violence a private,
9 family matter.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And you called this incident on
12 December 31st a private, family matter?
13 MR. WAGGONER: Objection, asked and answered.
14 COMMISSIONER HUR: Sustained.
15 MR. KEITH: Q. Sheriff, you knew when you made
16 those responses to the press what you had done on
17 December 31st?
18 A. Yes.
19 MR. WAGGONER: Objection, calls for speculation.
20 Vague.
21 COMMISSIONER HUR: "Vague" is sustained.
22 MR. KEITH: Q. Sheriff, when you made that remark
23 to the media that this was a private, family matter, in
24 your mind at that time, you knew that you had injured
25 your wife on December 31st?
776
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Okay. And at that time, when you called that
3 incident a private, family matter, you knew that what
4 you had done on December 31st was wrong?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Twenty or 30 years ago, law enforcement used
7 to treat domestic violence as a private, family matter?
8 MR. WAGGONER: Objection, relevance.
9 COMMISSIONER HUR: Sustained.
10 MR. KEITH: Q. Sheriff, are you aware of the
11 history of law enforcement treatment of domestic
12 violence and the advances that have been made in recent
13 decades with regard to treatment of domestic violence
14 incidents by law enforcement?
15 A. I am, yes.
16 Q. Okay. Are you in favor of those advances in
17 law enforcement treatment of domestic violence that have
18 occurred?
19 A. Yes, very much so.
20 Q. Advances like -- and are you in favor of the
21 policy of prosecuting domestic violence crimes where
22 there is evidence of domestic violence even if the
23 victim is noncooperative?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, Sheriff, I'd like you to -- I'd like to
777
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 move forward a few days, to the few days before your
2 arrest. Your arrest happened on January 13th. In the
3 days leading up to January 13th, you had a number of
4 calls with Linnette Peralta Haynes?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Okay. You had a number of meetings with her
7 in those days?
8 A. I don't recall how many meetings exactly, but
9 not many.
10 Q. Okay. Did you have discussions about what
11 kind of message you wanted to be sending out to the
12 media about what happened on December 31st and what
13 charges might arise from it?
14 A. I believe the conversation came up, yes.
15 Q. Okay. And you had the -- you had those
16 conversations with your political advisors?
17 A. I -- volunteers, advisors. People often were
18 coming to me, making suggestions.
19 Q. You had those conversations about media
20 strategy with Linnette Peralta Haynes?
21 A. I think Ms. Peralta Haynes was making
22 suggestions or texting me suggestions.
23 Q. Okay. Who else was involved in developing a
24 media strategy in response to the potential for criminal
25 charges?
778
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 A. Well, there wasn't much of a media strategy,
2 but people who would, I think, participate or speak were
3 Jim Stearns, who's the consultant that I hired during my
4 campaign for sheriff, and my attorney then, Bob
5 Waggener.
6 Q. Now, Sheriff, could you -- there's an exhibit
7 in your exhibit binder, Exhibit 81. Can you turn to
8 that exhibit?
9 A. Yes.
10 COMMISSIONER HUR: Mr. Keith, you gave a one-hour
11 time estimate yesterday. How much more do you think you
12 have?
13 MR. KEITH: Commissioners, I apologize. I think I
14 have -- I have more. I think I have about 40 or 45
15 minutes more.
16 COMMISSIONER HUR: Okay. Why don't -- why don't
17 you proceed. I don't know whether we can -- Counsel,
18 whether you need to notify your client. It does not
19 look like we will have the mayor at 11:00 o'clock.
20 MR. KEITH: Okay.
21 COMMISSIONER HUR: Please proceed.
22 MR. KEITH: Thank you.
23 Q. So Sheriff, are you at Exhibit 81?
24 A. Yes.
25 MR. KEITH: Okay. Now, for the commission,
779
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 Exhibit 81 is a series of text messages between Sheriff
2 Mirkarimi and Linnette Peralta Haynes.
3 THE WITNESS: Yes.
4 MR. KEITH: Q. Now, Sheriff, I'm going to ask you
5 to -- to go -- well, first of all, before we go to a
6 particular message, there was a rally in front of City
7 Hall by domestic violence advocates in the few days
8 before you were arrested. Do you recall that rally
9 occurring?
10 MR. WAGGONER: Objection, relevance.
11 COMMISSIONER HUR: Sustained.
12 MR. KEITH: Q. I'm laying a foundation for the
13 subsequent message, to provide context that -- to
14 something that is relevant.
15 COMMISSIONER HUR: Why don't you -- why don't you
16 get to the main issue?
17 MR. KEITH: Okay.
18 COMMISSIONER HUR: And if there's an objection and
19 we need --
20 MR. KEITH: Okay.
21 COMMISSIONER HUR: -- to go back and establish
22 foundation, we can.
23 MR. KEITH: Okay.
24 Q. Sheriff, would you turn to -- and I apologize
25 to the commission for these pages being unnumbered, but
780
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 there are -- there's a text message on January 12th
2 that's at 4:04 p.m. that I wanted -- I wanted to ask the
3 sheriff about. It's about eight or nine pages in. And
4 it's actually -- it's shown on -- on two different
5 pages, but the second page shows the full text message.
6 So Sheriff, looking at this January 12th,
7 4:04 p.m. text message, this is a text message that you
8 sent Linnette Peralta Haynes?
9 A. I'm sorry. At 4:04? Yes.
10 Q. And in that text message, you're expressing
11 dismay that -- that Beverly Upton has been part of a
12 rally of domestic violence advocates calling for your
13 resignation.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And you mention that you've always been a
16 fervent supporter of the DV community.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And therefore, you were concerned about how
19 the domestic violence community seemed to not be
20 supporting you.
21 A. Not communicating with me.
22 Q. Did you have any concerns that they weren't
23 supporting you?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did you feel betrayed by the domestic violence
781
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 community?
2 A. Wouldn't say "betrayed," but I would say
3 alarmed.
4 Q. Did you feel that you had been loyal to them
5 in the past?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did you feel that they were being disloyal to
8 you by not supporting you?
9 A. No, I was alarmed by the lack of
10 communication.
11 Q. Okay. So you had no concerns about the
12 substantive position that they were taking that you
13 should resign?
14 A. I had concerns, yes.
15 Q. Okay. And those concerns stemmed in part from
16 the fact that you had -- that you had supported their
17 causes in the past and you felt betrayed?
18 A. Well, that I had a strong relationship with
19 not the community, but with the cause.
20 Q. And then we have -- there's a line here in
21 this text message that says, "Am I really guilty until
22 proven innocent?" You see that?
23 A. I do.
24 Q. Okay. You had sent -- you sent that message
25 to Ms. Peralta Haynes on January 12th?
782
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 A. Yes. In response to her message, yes.
2 Q. Okay. And you were concerned that you were --
3 that you were being treated as guilty until proven
4 innocent?
5 MR. WAGGONER: Objection, relevance. I don't
6 understand the relevance of this line of questioning.
7 COMMISSIONER HUR: I'm not sure I do either, but
8 this exhibit was stipulated. It's in evidence. So I'm
9 going to let him ask it, but I would like to get to the
10 point.
11 You may answer the question.
12 THE WITNESS: I -- yes, because this is before I
13 was charged and no process had unfolded yet.
14 MR. KEITH: Q. But you knew at the time that you
15 sent this text message that you had injured your wife?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And as you told us last night, you in fact
18 committed a crime on December 31st?
19 MR. WAGGONER: Objection, asked and answered.
20 COMMISSIONER HUR: Sustained.
21 MR. KEITH: Q. And you reference here "political
22 forces at work."
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Okay. You felt that there were political
25 forces at work to prosecute you?
783
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 MR. WAGGONER: Objection, relevance.
2 COMMISSIONER HUR: Getting close, Mr. Keith. I'm
3 going to overrule it, but what is your point?
4 You may answer.
5 THE WITNESS: I am speculating. Yes.
6 MR. KEITH: Q. Now, Sheriff, can you turn to --
7 it's a -- it's a text message that's further in. It's
8 still a text message on January 12th. It's about six
9 pages in. It begins with "Quite agree." And it's
10 actually shown on two pages, and the second page shows
11 the full message.
12 COMMISSIONER HUR: Can you give us a date and time?
13 MR. KEITH: It's a January 12th, and it's -- it's
14 immediately above a text message that was sent at
15 10:05 p.m.
16 THE WITNESS: Yes.
17 MR. KEITH: Q. So Sheriff, this is the text
18 message that you sent to Linnette Peralta Haynes?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. And in this text message, are you --
21 you state, "a loud drum beat needs to vibe that this is
22 a political witch hunt."
23 What does it mean -- what did you mean when you
24 said "a loud drum beat needs to vibe"?
25 MR. WAGGONER: Objection, relevance.
784
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 COMMISSIONER HUR: Overruled.
2 THE WITNESS: That our messaging needs to get out;
3 that concerns exchanged between Ms. Haynes, Peralta
4 Haynes, and myself was that we had been quiet.
5 MR. KEITH: Q. And the message that had to get out
6 was that this was all political?
7 A. It appeared, yes.
8 Q. Okay. Well, I'm asking you, what message did
9 you intend to send out on January 12th? What message
10 did you say you wanted to send out on January 12th?
11 A. Well, in response, just what I said, that -- a
12 vibe that needs to vibe that this is a witch hunt.
13 Q. And you wanted that to be the media strategy?
14 MR. WAGGONER: Objection, relevance, asked and
15 answered.
16 COMMISSIONER HUR: I think It's been answered.
17 Sustained.
18 MR. KEITH: Okay.
19 Q. Sheriff, you knew at the time that you sent
20 this message that you had injured your wife on
21 December 31st?
22 MR. WAGGONER: Objection, asked and answered.
23 COMMISSIONER HUR: I think it's foundational.
24 Overruled.
25 THE WITNESS: Yes.
785
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 MR. KEITH: Q. You knew that a crime -- that you
2 had actually committed a crime?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Whose political witch hunt was it?
5 MR. WAGGONER: Objection, relevance.
6 MR. KEITH: Q. Who was behind it?
7 COMMISSIONER HUR: Wait. There's an objection
8 pending.
9 MR. KEITH: Oh, I'm --
10 COMMISSIONER HUR: Are you withdrawing the
11 question? Did you withdraw the question since you've
12 made another one?
13 MR. KEITH: I can -- I can -- I can offer another
14 question that's more --
15 COMMISSIONER HUR: Okay.
16 MR. KEITH: -- full.
17 Q. Sheriff, the drumbeat that needed to vibe that
18 this is a political witch hunt, what was the drumbeat
19 about who was behind the political witch hunt that you
20 wanted to send out?
21 MR. WAGGONER: Objection, relevance, asked and
22 answered.
23 COMMISSIONER HUR: I'm going to overrule it.
24 THE WITNESS: Potential opponents from the previous
25 campaign which we were -- I was aware of, that this was
786
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 an opportunity to make whatever capital/hay out of what
2 was occurring.
3 MR. KEITH: Q. Now, your opponents in the
4 sheriff's race, neither of them was in the district
5 attorney's office. Right?
6 A. No.
7 Q. I'm sorry. I -- the question was confusing.
8 Both of your opponents in the sheriff's race, they
9 were in law enforcement. Correct?
10 A. Well, there was actually three opponents --
11 Q. I'm sorry.
12 A. -- but two active opponents were in law
13 enforcement, correct.
14 Q. Okay. Were any of your opponents in the
15 sheriff's race in the D.A.'.s. office?
16 MR. WAGGONER: Objection, relevance.
17 COMMISSIONER HUR: Sustained.
18 MR. KEITH: Q. Okay. Was part of the message that
19 you wanted to send out was that the district attorney
20 was on a political witch hunt to get you?
21 MR. WAGGONER: Objection, relevance, asked and
22 answered.
23 MR. KEITH: I'm happy to address the relevance
24 objection, and this has not been asked and answered --
25 asked and answered.
787
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 COMMISSIONER HUR: It hasn't been asked and
2 answered. You may address the relevancy objection.
3 MR. KEITH: The objection goes to relations with
4 other law enforcement agencies. I'm sorry. The
5 relevance goes to relations with another law enforcement
6 agency, that it's accusing another law enforcement
7 agency of political action when the sheriff knows that
8 he's committed a crime.
9 COMMISSIONER HUR: So -- can you read back the
10 question, please?
11 (Record read as follows:
12 "Q Was part of the message that you
13 wanted to send out was that the district
14 attorney was on a political witch hunt to
15 get you?")
16 COMMISSIONER HUR: I'll overrule the objection.
17 THE WITNESS: The question again, please?
18 MR. KEITH: Madam Court Reporter, can you reread
19 the question?
20 (Record read as follows:
21 "Q Was part of the message that you
22 wanted to send out was that the district
23 attorney was on a political witch hunt to
24 get you?")
25 THE WITNESS: No.
788
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 MR. KEITH: Q. Did you instruct your -- the people
2 sending out the media message to stay away from attacks
3 on the district attorney?
4 MR. WAGGONER: Objection, relevance.
5 THE WITNESS: I did not instruct at all.
6 COMMISSIONER HUR: Overruled.
7 THE WITNESS: Any messaging or discussion that took
8 place was speculative.
9 MR. KEITH: Q. So you had -- so you gave -- who
10 did you give a direction to send out this vibe? Did you
11 give Linnette Peralta Haynes a direction to send out
12 that vibe, that this is a political witch hunt?
13 MR. WAGGONER: Objection, relevance.
14 COMMISSIONER HUR: Counsel, a couple more questions
15 on this, but we're getting far afield. I'm going to
16 allow this one.
17 THE WITNESS: No.
18 MR. KEITH: Q. Did you tell anybody to send out a
19 vibe that this is a political witch hunt?
20 A. Well, I believe I answered that in speculation
21 to an exchange, a text exchange with Ms. Peralta Haynes.
22 What resulted is not, but just an exchange.
23 Q. So you exchanged text messages with Linnette
24 Peralta Haynes about a matter of strategy, a matter of
25 media strategy. Did you take any action to implement
789
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 that medi
a strategy?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Okay. Did anybody take any action to
4 implement that media strategy?
5 MR. WAGGONER: Objection, calls for speculation.
6 COMMISSIONER HUR: Sustained.
7 MR. KEITH: Q. Okay. Let me put it this way: If
8 anybody took steps to implement that media strategy, you
9 don't know about it?
10 MR. WAGGONER: Objection, calls for speculation.
11 How would my client know that?
12 COMMISSIONER HUR: Sustained.
13 MR. KEITH: Q. Now, Sheriff, at one point you met
14 with members of the Deputy Sheriffs' Association to
15 discuss the charges against you?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. What did you tell them in that meeting?
18 A. I don't recall word for word, but explaining
19 to them the situation so that they would be aware that I
20 was still able and capable and that the sheriff's
21 department would continue to run well.
22 Q. Okay. Now, just to step back, the Deputy
23 Sheriffs' Association, that's -- that's the union of
24 sheriff's deputies?
25 A. Yes, but there's two unions in the sheriff's
790
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 department.
2 Q. Okay. And there's another union for command
3 staff?
4 A. Management.
5 Q. Yes. And then there's the Deputy Sheriffs'
6 Association, which is the line deputies?
7 A. That's right.
8 Q. Okay. When did you meet with the Deputy
9 Sheriffs' Association to talk about the charges against
10 you?
11 MR. WAGGONER: Objection, relevance.
12 COMMISSIONER HUR: I'll hear argument on it.
13 MR. WAGGONER: There's nothing in the mayor's
14 charges regarding any meeting with the Deputy Sheriffs'
15 Association. There's been no foundation of how any such
16 meeting may be connected to the charges. There's
17 nothing at all about the Deputy Sheriffs' Association
18 that's related to the charges of official misconduct.
19 COMMISSIONER HUR: Is this going to a prior
20 inconsistent statement?
21 MR. KEITH: It's going to -- yes, and it's going to
22 leadership issues, which are a part of -- a part of the
23 charges and part of the standard of conduct for a chief
24 law enforcement officer.
25 COMMISSIONER HUR: Get there quickly.
791
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 MR. KEITH: Okay.
2 COMMISSIONER HUR: Overruled.
3 MR. KEITH: Q. Sheriff, when did you meet with the
4 Deputy Sheriffs' Association?
5 A. You would have to help me refresh my memory.
6 Q. Okay. Was it after charges had been filed
7 against you?
8 A. Again, you would have to help me refresh my
9 memory.
10 Q. Okay. It was after it came to light that
11 there was a police investigation that you met with the
12 Deputy Sheriffs' Association?
13 MR. WAGGONER: Objection, asked and answered.
14 COMMISSIONER HUR: It's a different question. I'll
15 overrule it.
16 THE WITNESS: I met with the Deputy Sheriffs'
17 Association to continue to update them as to what was
18 occurring.
19 MR. KEITH: Q. Okay. And the first time you met
20 with the Deputy Sheriffs' Association, did you tell them
21 that you were going to fight the charges?
22 A. I believe I -- I would, yes.
23 Q. And did you tell them that you didn't do it?
24 A. I would have to see a record of that.
25 Q. Do you remember -- did you tell them that you
792
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 didn't do it?
2 A. I -- I may have, yes, but that I was going to
3 fight the charges, yes.
4 Q. And at that time when you had that meeting
5 with the Deputy Sheriffs' Association, you knew that you
6 had in fact injured your wife on December 31st?
7 A. I -- yes.
8 Q. Okay. But you told them that you didn't do
9 it?
10 A. I said that I was going to fight the charges,
11 I believe, yes.
12 Q. Okay. You said you were going to fight the
13 charges?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. And you don't recall, but you may have
16 said that you didn't do it?
17 MR. WAGGONER: Objection, asked and answered.
18 COMMISSIONER HUR: I think the second part is
19 unclear.
20 MR. KEITH: Okay.
21 COMMISSIONER HUR: I'll allow it.
22 MR. KEITH: Q. Sheriff -- Sheriff, you may answer.
23 A. It would be helpful if I had a transcript.
24 COMMISSIONER HUR: Sheriff, is your testimony that
25 you don't remember whether you said you didn't do it?
793
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 THE WITNESS: Yes, that is my testimony.
2 MR. KEITH: Q. Now, Sheriff, you were arrested on
3 January 30 -- on January 13th, 2012?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You came down to county jail in the company of
6 your attorney at that time, a Mr. Waggener, not Mr.
7 Waggoner here, but a different Mr. Waggener?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And you met Inspector Daniele and Inspector
10 Becker of the San Francisco Police Department at county
11 jail?
12 A. I believe there were four inspectors
13 altogether.
14 Q. Do you remember Inspector Becker and Inspector
15 Daniele being two of the gentlemen who were there from
16 the police department?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And those inspectors from the police
19 department, Daniele and Becker, placed you under arrest?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. They served you with an emergency protective
22 order?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. They explained to you the provisions of the
25 emergency protective order?
794
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. They explained to you that this emergency
3 protective -- protective order prohibited you from
4 owning or possessing any firearms?
5 A. Ye
s.
6 Q. Inspectors Becker and Daniele advised you that
7 you had to surrender all of your firearms?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Okay. They advised you that there were three
10 weapons registered to you?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. There was a -- there was a Smith & Wesson
13 revolver registered to you?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. A SIG Sauer pistol registered to you?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And a Beretta pistol registered to you?
18 A. Right, yes.
19 Q. And did you make any statements to the police
20 inspectors about how many weapons you had?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay. Did you tell the police inspectors that
23 you only had two weapons?
24 A. That I wasn't sure about the location of the
25 third, yes.
795
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 Q. Okay. Let's take this step by step. You told
2 the police that you certainly had two of these three
3 weapons?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Didn't you tell the police that you had sold
6 your Smith & Wesson revolver to another recruit at the
7 police academy in 1996?
8 A. I was speculating because it had been since
9 the academy that I had unearthed the weapon and I was
10 flustered. I was trying to recall where the weapon was
11 because they were asking me, and I was thinking out
12 loud.
13 Q. Did you know the location at the time -- let
14 me strike that.
15 At the time when you spoke with Inspectors Becker
16 and Daniele, did you know the location of your Beretta
17 and your SIG Sauer pistols?
18 A. I did.
19 Q. Where were they located?
20 A. Downstairs in a storage room. I was having to
21 focus because a lot was happening at that very moment.
22 But downstairs in our condo, there's a storage area, and
23 that is where the SIG .40 caliber and Beretta .9 were
24 located in a cabinet.
25 Q. And the storage area where they were located
796
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 in your building, is that a shared storage area?
2 A. It is not.
3 Q. Okay. Is it a separate storage area,
4 dedicated to you?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Okay. And within that storage area, where
7 were the guns?
8 A. In a cabinet, in a -- they were stored in a
9 cabinet, large, tall cabinet where they were stored.
10 Q. Okay. Did the cabinet itself have a lock on
11 it?
12 A. It did.
13 MR. WAGGONER: Objection.
14 THE WITNESS: And --
15 COMMISSIONER HUR: The answer's in.
16 THE WITNESS: And the door to the storage area was
17 both padlocked and bolt-locked.
18 MR. KEITH: Q. And where was your Smith & Wesson
19 revolver?
20 A. Also in the same location, different cabinet.
21 Q. When you say "same location," you mean within
22 your storage unit?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. But not with your other pistols?
25 A. That's right.
797
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 Q. Okay. So in this conversation with inspectors
2 Becker and Daniele, is it your testimony that you told
3 them that you didn't -- that you didn't know where your
4 Smith & Wesson gun was or whether you even still owned
5 it?
6 A. I believe so. I was flustered because I
7 wanted to be specific, and I was trying to be as
8 specific as I could. And at that moment, I wanted to be
9 as precise as I possibly could. The storage room was a
10 mess.
11 Q. So Inspector Becker and Inspector Daniele told
12 you that they would give you 24 hours to locate your
13 weapons?
14 A. I recall so, yes.
15 Q. Okay. And Inspector Becker and Inspector
16 Daniele also asked you for proof of sale of the Smith &
17 Wesson revolver?
18 A. I believe so.
19 Q. And you made an agreement with Inspector
20 Becker and Inspector Daniele that your attorney would
21 contact them and turn the weapons over to them the next
22 day?
23 A. Yes. I allowed my attorney, who stepped in,
24 to facilitate the conversation from there on.
25 Q. Okay. And that was the agreement that was
798
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 made in that conversation?
2 A. I believe so.
3 Q. Okay. You were present when that agreement
4 was made?
5 A. I -- yes.
6 Q. Okay. At any point in that conversation down
7 there at county jail with Inspector Becker and Inspector
8 Daniele, was it ever discussed that you would be turning
9 the weapons over to the San Francisco Sheriff's
10 Department instead?
11 A. I left that to my attorney, because when I was
12 being processed, my attorney was then continuing
13 whatever conversation he had with the inspectors.
14 Q. During the time when you were present for this
15 discussion about what was going to be done with the
16 weapons, was it ever discussed that these weapons would
17 be turned over to the sheriff's department instead of
18 the police department?
19 A. I believe so, but again, I was allowing my
20 attorney to facilitate that exchange.
21 Q. Sheriff, the question is about the
22 conversation that occurred when you were present, not
23 about conversations that may have occurred when you were
24 not present.
25 A. No, I'm talking about when I was present.
799
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 Q. So when you were present, it's your testimony
2 that it was -- that the -- that it was discussed the
3 weapons would be turned over to the sheriff's department
4 instead of the police department?
5 A. And the reason why is that I was not allowed
6 to go home. There was a stay-away order, and so I was
7 thinking out loud about the location of the weapons so
8 that there would be a precise procurement possession of
9 the weapons. That's why that conversation entered in.
10 Q. Sheriff, I -- I don't understand your answer.
11 I'm -- I'm going to try and ask the question in a
12 different way.
13 While you were present, did you raise the prospect
14 of you turning the weapons over to the sheriff's
15 department?
16 A. I did not, no.
17 Q. Okay. While that discussion was occurring,
18 while you were present, did your attorney discuss with
19 inspectors -- Inspector Becker and Inspector Daniele
20 turning the weapons over to the sheriff's department?
21 A. I believe he did, yes.
22 Q. And was that agreement made, that that's how
23 it was going to happen, that the weapons were going to
24 be turned over to the sheriff's department?
25 A. Well, that was my impression, yes.
800
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 Q. Okay. So when you left that meeting, it was
2 your impression that the weapons were going to be turned
3 over to the sheriff's department and not the police
4 department?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. As -- as instructions by my attorney.
8 Q. Okay. So it was the impression that you got
9 based on a conversation you had with your attorney or
10 based on the conversation that you had with inspectors
11 Becker and Daniele?
12 A. Well, my attorney was present during the
13 conversation, and based on the discussion that was
14 taking place, I understood that the weapons would be
15 turned over to the police department. But over the
16 Saturday -- I believe it was the Saturday -- that it
17 would be first handed over to the sheriff's department.
18 Q. Okay. And this is the discussion that you had
19 with inspectors Becker and Daniele?
20 A. No, it is what my attorney had instructed me
21 or had suggested to me.
22 Q. Okay. So your information about any
23 conversation that may have been had with inspectors
24 Becker and Daniele isn't firsthand; is that correct?
25 A. Yes and no. Part of it was firsthand and part
801
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 of it was not.
2 Q. On this specific issue of whether the weapons
3 were going to be turned over to the sheriff's department
4 rather than the police department, were you present for
5 any such discussion at county jail?
6 A. I believe it was mentioned, yes, by my
7 attorney to the inspectors.
8 Q. Okay. While you were there? Was it mentioned
9 while you were there by your attorney to the inspectors?
10 MR. WAGGONER: Objection, asked and answered.
11 COMMISSIONER HUR: Counsel, to me, it's clear. He
12 has said that they were there. He was there, the lawyer
13 was there, Inspector Daniele was there, and this issue
14 was discussed. That's -- that is the -- my impression
15 of the testimony, so I think it's -- I think you've got
16 that. So let's -- why don't you get to whatever point
17 you're trying to make with this line?
18 MR. KEITH: Q. So Sheriff, what did you understand
19 your agreement to be with those police inspectors when
20 you finished the discussion with them?
21 A. Regarding the weapons?
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. My understanding, as it was relayed by the
24 police inspectors to me with my attorney present, that
25 the weapons would be located by my attorney; that the
802
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 attorney would acquire the weapons and then facilitate
2 an exchange with a representative in the sheriff's
3 department and then hand them to the San Francisco
4 Police Department.
5 Q. So part of the agreement would be that your
6 attorney would go to your home and retrieve the weapons?
7 A. He or have somebody a proxy to do so, correct.
8 Q. Now, did it come to your attention on Saturday
9 that the police inspectors wanted to get your weapons?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did you make any calls to anyone in the
12 sheriff's department with regard to your weapons on
13 Friday or Saturday? This is the 13th and the 14th.
14 A. I don't recall if I called my -- anybody in
15 the sheriff's department, but I do recall asking my
16 attorney if they were successfully acquired.
17 Q. Did you give your attorney any direction with
18 regard to contacting people in the sheriff's department?
19 A. No, except the fact that my attorney knew
20 already, beforehand, the contact of retired Undersheriff
21 Jan Dempsey, and made contact with her, I believe.
22 MR. KEITH: Okay. I'm going to move to strike
23 everything after the word "no."
24 COMMISSIONER HUR: Will you read back the question,
25 please?
803
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 THE REPORTER: The question, sir, or the answer?
2 COMMISSIONER HUR: The question.
3 (Record read as follows:
4 "Q Did you give your attorney any
5 direction with regard to contacting people
6 in the sheriff's department?")
7 COMMISSIONER HUR: Overruled. Open-ended question.
8 MR. KEITH: Q. Were you contacted by anyone on
9 Saturday, January 14th, with regard to the status of
10 your weapons?
11 A. I believe my attorney, yes.
12 Q. Anyone else?
13 A. May have been contacted by Undersheriff Jan
14 Dempsey, yes.
15 Q. What was that con- -- what conversation did
16 you have with Undersheriff Dempsey on Saturday, the
17 14th?
18 A. I -- I'm trying to recall, but it might have
19 been that they were in conversation with our attorney.
20 That's it. With the attorney about the weapons.
21 Q. And who initiated the call with Undersheriff
22 Dempsey? Did she call you or did you call her?
23 A. I don't recall. I'm sorry.
24 Q. Did you give her any direction in that call?
25 A. No.
804
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 Q. Did she ask for any direction in that call?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Did she give you any information about w
hat
4 was going to happen as a result of that call?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did she give you any information about her
7 intentions about what to do after that call?
8 A. Other than she must abide by the order and by
9 the normal procedures for, I think, acquiring weapons.
10 Q. Now, Sheriff, the weapons weren't actually
11 transferred to the police department until after a court
12 order was issued?
13 A. I believe so.
14 Q. What conversations, if any, did you have with
15 the members of the sheriff's department with regard to
16 your weapons between Saturday, January 14th, and the
17 issuance of that court order later the following week?
18 A. I believe none.
19 Q. Did you get any information from the sheriff's
20 department about the status of your weapons during that
21 time?
22 A. Only that they had received them over the
23 weekend, and that's it. I never asked further.
24 Q. Did you give any direction to the sheriff's
25 department with regard to your weapons over that time?
805
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 A. No.
2 Q. Now, Sheriff, to prosecute crimes, law
3 enforcement depends on witnesses to come forward.
4 Correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And domestic violence is an under-reported
7 crime. Correct?
8 A. I believe it is, yes.
9 Q. Okay. Witnesses are needed to prosecute
10 domestic violence crimes?
11 MR. WAGGONER: Objection, relevance.
12 COMMISSIONER HUR: Overruled.
13 THE WITNESS: Yes.
14 MR. KEITH: Q. And if witnesses don't come
15 forward, then domestic violence victims remain in the
16 shadows?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, Sheriff, in open court when you were --
19 when you pled guilty, you made a statement?
20 MR. WAGGONER: Objection, lacks foundation.
21 COMMISSIONER HUR: I think he's establishing it.
22 Is that a question?
23 MR. KEITH: Yes.
24 THE WITNESS: Yes.
25 MR. KEITH: Now, Commissioners, the statement is at
806
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 Exhibit 36.
2 MR. EMBLIDGE: Does the witness have copies?
3 MR. KEITH: I believe -- oh, I'm sorry. It's in
4 Volume I.
5 MS. KAISER: That's correct. Thank you, Counsel.
6 MR. KEITH: Q. So, Sheriff, have you found
7 Exhibit 36 in that binder?
8 A. Almost.
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. KEITH: Okay. Well, Commissioners, I'd like to
12 read the statement that the sheriff made as a party
13 admission, and then I'm going to proceed and ask him
14 some questions about it.
15 This is at Exhibit 36, page 4, line 18, through
16 page 5, line 1. It begins with the defendant as the
17 speaker, and the words are, "Thank you, your Honor. I
18 want to be back with my family, and I want this to end.
19 I would like to offer my sincere apology to Ms. Madison,
20 her family, my neighbors, my department, the Sheriffs'
21 Department, and the people of San Francisco.
22 "I realize that what was reported to the police was
23 out of desire to help my family. I truly regret that
24 these proceedings may have caused the Madison family or
25 anyone any suffering, grief, embarrassment, or
807
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 harassment, or damage to their reputations. I want to
2 thank the District Attorney and my counsel for their
3 professionalism."
4 Q. Sheriff, when you made that apology to Ivory
5 Madison and her family, did you mean it?
6 MR. WAGGONER: Objection, relevance.
7 COMMISSIONER HUR: Overruled.
8 THE WITNESS: Yes.
9 MR. KEITH: Q. Now, you realize that what occurred
10 during the criminal proceedings included a lot of
11 stories in the newspapers regarding Ivory Madison?
12 MR. WAGGONER: Objection, relevance.
13 COMMISSIONER HUR: Overruled.
14 THE WITNESS: The question again?
15 MR. KEITH: Q. At the time you made this apology,
16 you knew that there had been many stories in the
17 newspaper about Ivory Madison that painted her in a not
18 very flattering way?
19 A. I -- I believe so.
20 Q. Okay. She was painted as a -- as a -- as a
21 fake lawyer?
22 MR. WAGGONER: Objection, calls for speculation.
23 COMMISSIONER HUR: If you know, you may answer.
24 THE WITNESS: I believe so.
25 MR. KEITH: Q. Okay. She was -- she was portrayed
808
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 as a -- as a crazy feminist radical?
2 A. I -- I don't know.
3 Q. Okay. She was portrayed as a -- as a tool of
4 people -- of your political enemies?
5 A. No.
6 Q. You don't think she was ever portrayed that
7 way in the media?
8 A. I don't --
9 MR. WAGGONER: Objection. I don't understand how
10 the media's portrayal of Ms. Madison is related to the
11 charges.
12 COMMISSIONER HUR: It's pretty tangential. We have
13 allowed some testimony with respect to how she was
14 portrayed in the media.
15 Mr. Keith, get to the point.
16 MR. KEITH: Okay.
17 COMMISSIONER HUR: I'm going to let this one in.
18 MR. KEITH: Q. Sheriff, part of your criminal --
19 part of your criminal defense strategy was a press
20 strategy?
21 MR. WAGGONER: Objection, attorney-client
22 privilege.
23 COMMISSIONER HUR: Sustained.
24 MR. KEITH: Q. Sheriff, during the time the
25 charges were pending against you, you spoke with
809
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 political consultants outside the presence of attorneys,
2 didn't you?
3 A. Maybe.
4 Q. Okay. And in those conversations with
5 political consultants, you discussed media strategy?
6 A. I -- I'm sure, yes.
7 Q. Okay. And that was -- and media strategy was
8 part of your defense strategy?
9 A. I don't know if I can say it was or not.
10 MR. WAGGONER: Objection, attorney-client
11 privilege.
12 THE WITNESS: Counsel, that -- that question was
13 asked and the objection sustained.
14 MR. KEITH: Okay.
15 Q. Now, Ms. Madison reported an incident that
16 occurred between you and your wife on December 31st.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Okay. And that is an incident in which you
19 committed a violent act against your wife?
20 MR. WAGGONER: Objection, asked and answered.
21 COMMISSIONER HUR: Sustained.
22 MR. KEITH: Okay.
23 COMMISSIONER HUR: Mr. Keith, you've gone well over
24 your time.
25 MR. KEITH: Okay.
810
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 COMMISSIONER HUR: If you're going to ask the same
2 questions --
3 MR. KEITH: Okay.
4 COMMISSIONER HUR: -- it's problematic.
5 MR. KEITH: Q. Sheriff, before March 12th, did
6 you make any public statements to disavow any of these
7 portrayals of Ivory Madison that were in the media?
8 MR. WAGGONER: Objection, relevance.
9 COMMISSIONER HUR: Overruled.
10 THE WITNESS: I don't believe I made any public
11 statements at all.
12 MR. KEITH: Q. Did you ever direct anyone not to
13 make attacks on Ivory Madison?
14 A. I never directed anybody to attack or not
15 attack.
16 Q. Sheriff, is it your testimony that on
17 December 31st, after you and your wife returned home
18 from that trip to the restaurant, there was no argument
19 at all in the house?
20 A. My wife and I did not go to the restaurant
21 together. My wife went to the restaurant on her own.
22 Q. Sheriff, I'm talking about this lunchtime trip
23 to the restaurant in the van on December 31st that --
24 where you turned around the van.
25 A. There was no argument in the house. There was
811
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 not.
2 Q. None whatsoever?
3 A. None whatsoever.
4 Q. Okay. There was absol- -- and it's your
5 testimony there was no physical contact in the house?
6 A. No, not unwelcomed.
7 Q. Your testimony that there was no pushing,
8 pulling, or grabbing in the house?
9 A. None, no.
10 Q. Okay. Just a single grab in the van. That's
11 your testimony?
12 MR. WAGGONER: Objection, asked and answered.
13 COMMISSIONER HUR: Sustained.
14 MR. KEITH: Q. Okay. Now, Sheriff, after you were
15 convicted and sentenced, the mayor met with you?
16 A. Yes, he met with me twice.
17 Q. There was a meeting you had with the mayor
18 where he gave you a choice. He said you could resign or
19 you would be suspended and he would initiate misconduct
20 charges against you?
21 A. That's right.
22 Q. Now --
23 A. I'm sorry, I misspoke. When I meant twice, I
24 meant before and after me entering a plea.
25 Q. Okay. I'm referring to -- so it sounds like
812
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 when the mayor gave you this choice, that was after --
2 after --
3 A. That's --
4 Q. It was the second of those two meetings?
5 A. That's correct, yes.
6 Q. Okay. And that meeting was after you were
7 actually sentenced. On March 19th, you were
8 sentenced?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And that -- that second meeting with the mayor
11 where he gave you a choice between resigning or
12 suspension was after you were sentenced?
13 A. That is correct.
14 Q. Okay. As of that time, you had been
15 convicted?
16 A. Sentenced, yes.
17 Q. Convicted and sentenced?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Okay. You were on probation?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay. And you were at the very beginning of
22 your three years of probation?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You had let down the sheriff's department?
25 A. Yes.
813
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 Q. Under those circumstances, wasn't the
2 honorable thing to do to resign?
3 MR. WAGGONER: Objection, calls for speculation,
4 lacks foundation, irrelevant.
5 MR. KEITH: A chief law enforcement officer can
6 certainly testify as to what is considered to be
7 honorable under the circumstances.
8 COMMISSIONER HUR: I'll -- I'll allow the question.
9 THE WITNESS: That's a hard question, and the
10 answer is a hard one too. I believe that given the
11 choices that had been presented to me by the mayor, I
12 did exactly as I should.
13 MR. KEITH: Okay. Nothing further. Thank you.
14 COMMISSIONER HUR: Thank you, Counsel.
15 Redirect?
16 MR. WAGGONER: May I request a five-minute recess?
17 COMMISSIONER HUR: Actually, that's possibly a good
18 idea so we can give the court reporter a break. We'll
19 take five minutes. Thank you.
20 (Recess taken from 11:09 a.m. to 11:21 a.m.)
21 COMMISSIONER HUR: We're back in session.
22 Mr. Sheriff, you remain under oath.
23 Are the microphones on?
24 MS. ARGUMEDO: Yes.
25 COMMISSIONER HUR: Okay. Mr. Waggoner, please
814
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 proceed.
2 MR. WAGGONER: Good morning, Commissioners. I'll
3 try to keep my questions brief.
4 ---o0o---
5 REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. WAGGONER:
6 MR. WAGGONER: Q. Sheriff, I'd like to take you
7 back to the morning of December 31st, 2011. You
8 testified earlier that you had an argument with your
9 wife. Can you tell us, what was that argument about?
10 A. It was about an impending trip that my wife,
11 Eliana, had informed me of that she was going to take to
12 Venezuela, potentially a rather long trip, and this is
13 not an unfamiliar discussion that we've had
in the past
14 because of previous trips that had taken place.
15 Q. And why did you become upset?
16 A. I became upset because of a trip that took
17 place about five to six months earlier where my wife had
18 taken our son, which I was very supportive of. I was
19 under the impression that that trip would be for several
20 weeks, and it turned out to be over two months, and I
21 was -- and that's not the first time that that had
22 happened, and I was sad and scared to be without my
23 family, to be without both my wife and son.
24 Q. Why? Why is that?
25 A. Well, I think for any -- well, at least for
815
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 myself, being a parent, I mean, I -- I love my family,
2 and I didn't want to be without my son for that long a
3 period of time.
4 Q. Why does talking about your son upset you?
5 MR. KEITH: Objection, lacks foundation.
6 COMMISSIONER HUR: I think he's testified -- I'm
7 not sure, actually, you got upset.
8 I will sustain the objection. You can lay the
9 foundation.
10 MR. WAGGONER: Q. So you mentioned -- you
11 testified that that morning, you became upset, and you
12 had an argument with your wife about a trip, a
13 planned -- a possible trip to Venezuela.
14 A. Well, my wife had declared -- I'm sorry. I
15 should let you finish.
16 Q. What was it about that particular argument?
17 What was said that made you so upset?
18 A. Of experiencing the loss and separation again
19 for an undetermined period of time, indeterminate period
20 of time of how long we would be apart. This springs
21 from a previous quarrel that we had and longstanding
22 conversations about long trips abroad where she would
23 take our son, Theo, and they would be a lot longer than
24 had been initially agreed upon.
25 Q. And prior to the morning of December 31st,
816
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 2011, had you discussed with your wife another trip to
2 Venezuela?
3 A. In a general way, yes. In a general way, but
4 it was only in that morning on our way to lunch had I
5 been informed that there was an impending trip.
6 Q. Well, what was it about that particular trip
7 at that time that made you upset?
8 A. Well, as we had discussed and argued, I wanted
9 to make sure that there was a plan. And this is
10 something that I spoke with in previous correspondence
11 and e-mails with my wife the last time that they were in
12 Venezuela, that we would have a plan as to how long, you
13 know, there would be the separation for.
14 And I had been concerned as a parent, not knowing
15 the previous trip all the immigration issues and custody
16 issues that had been involved when another parent takes
17 their child for a long period of time. And I was really
18 insisting and hoping that we had a plan about what that
19 duration of time would be. That was the body of the
20 argument.
21 Q. How do you feel about what happened on the
22 31st, December 31st, 2011, now? How do you feel
23 about what you said and did?
24 A. I wish I can turn back the clock, of course.
25 I feel horrible, ashamed. I just -- just -- just all
817
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 that.
2 Q. Let me move forward now, Sheriff. We've heard
3 testimony about conversations that you had with
4 Ms. Peralta Haynes, with your wife, with others, but let
5 me just ask you very directly, at any time, did you
6 dissuade anyone from any law enforcement investigation?
7 A. Never.
8 Q. At any time, did you ever ask anyone to
9 destroy any evidence?
10 A. Never.
11 Q. Thank you. We've also heard testimony about
12 your weapons that were turned over to law enforcement.
13 Let me ask you first, how did you store those weapons?
14 A. The two semiautomatics, the SIG Sauer and the
15 Beretta, they're slides. The slide chambers were
16 completely set back. They were neutralized by a lot of
17 tape. There was never ammunition in the weapons
18 themselves at all. It -- they were completely
19 immobilized from being of any use, and they were stored
20 in a cabinet in a storage room which would take both a
21 padlock and a bolt lock, two keys, in order to gain
22 entry into that.
23 On the Smith, it was an open cylinder, no
24 ammunition, taped so that the cylinder would not be --
25 so that the cylinder could not be engaged, so that,
818
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 again, they would be rendered neutralized.
2 Q. Thank you. At any time after your arrest in
3 January, at any time, did you ever have any control over
4 those weapons?
5 A. Never.
6 MR. KEITH: Objection, calls for -- well,
7 objection, vague.
8 COMMISSIONER HUR: Do you understand the question,
9 Sheriff?
10 THE WITNESS: Yes, I -- I believe I do.
11 COMMISSIONER HUR: Overruled.
12 THE WITNESS: I had no control and no contact at
13 all with those weapons.
14 MR. WAGGONER: Q. Thank you. I'm going to move on
15 now to at your -- I believe at your inaugural, you
16 testified earlier that you used the phrase at some point
17 during a media interview or conference -- you used the
18 phrase "private, family matter" in reference to what was
19 happening to you at that time. What -- what are your
20 feelings about that now?
21 MR. KEITH: Objection, relevance.
22 COMMISSIONER HUR: Overruled.
23 THE WITNESS: Naturally, I completely regret that I
24 said that. And I made a mistake, I made a terrible
25 mistake in saying that. It wasn't in the context of
819
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 what I had meant. And when -- the statement that was
2 given to me, I should have rejected the statement.
3 MR. WAGGONER: Q. Thank you, Sheriff. I'm going
4 to move on. Only a few more questions.
5 Sheriff, while -- between the time that you were
6 inaugurated, for those couple of months that you were
7 acting sheriff, what did you accomplish, accomplish as
8 sheriff?
9 MR. KEITH: Objection, relevance and beyond the
10 scope.
11 COMMISSIONER HUR: "What did you accomplish as
12 sheriff?" I'll hear argument.
13 MR. WAGGONER: Part of the mayor's allegations is
14 that the Sheriff is -- can't possibly be sheriff because
15 he's not capable of performing the duties of the office.
16 However, I think given what the Sheriff was able to
17 accomplish while sheriff, that's certainly relevant to
18 that argument and to those allegations.
19 COMMISSIONER HUR: Mr. Keith?
20 MR. KEITH: The argument regarding performance as
21 sheriff does not go to qualifications, does not go to
22 whether he can perform the basic duties or make any
23 certain accomplishments.
24 The argument regarding the duties of sheriff goes
25 to the relationship to the duties of sheriff. There's
820
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 not -- the basis for our charges is that -- is not that
2 he's ineffective or that the sky will fall if he is
3 reinstituted. The basis for the charges is that he fell
4 below the standard of conduct and that this conduct was
5 also in relation to the duties of office.
6 COMMISSIONER HUR: Okay. So if I sustain this
7 objection, you're -- you're going to maintain the
8 position that whether or not he can perform the
9 duties -- after -- his effectiveness on the job going
10 forward is not relevant to this investigation.
11 MR. KEITH: You know --
12 COMMISSIONER HUR: Because that's what it sounded
13 like you just said.
14 MR. KEITH: No. Commissioners, I don't want to
15 engage in line-drawing at this point on this issue. I
16 think I know what our position is going to be, but I
17 want to -- I will give them an opportunity to put in the
18 evidence that they feel they need to make it. So I'll
19 withdraw it.
20 COMMISSIONER HUR: So you're withdrawing your
21 objection?
22 MR. KEITH: Yes.
23 COMMISSIONER HUR: Okay. Do you have the question
24 in mind, sir?
25 THE WITNESS: Again, please.
821
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 MR. WAGGONER: Q. At the time that you served the
2 City and County of San Francisco as sheriff this year,
3 what did you accomplish?
4 A. A great deal. It's, I think, a long answer,
5 but I'll do my best to synthesize. I was inheriting a
6 department that had been well led by my predecessor,
7 Sheriff Mike Hennessey, who'd been the longest-serving
8 elected in the history of the City and County of San
9 Francisco. Thirty-two years, there hadn't been, as I
10 said earlier, an open election for sheriff, so there was
11 a great period of transition.
12 Part of that transition was my making staff changes
13 and promotions of both deputy sheriffs and civilian
14 staff; making constant rounds to all our properties,
15 both within San Francisco and in San Mateo County; being
16 able to change policies so that I would have a more
17 inclusive administration of lower ranks that hadn't been
18 previously included in budgetary decisions and
19 policy-making decisions; preparing the sheriff's
20 department for what was now becoming the first full year
21 of state prisoner realignment as propelled by Assembly
22 Bill 109; and had begun a number of projects that would
23 really elevate our ability of having in-custody and
24 post-custody rehabilitation programs building on the
25 success of the Mike Hennessey administration in ways
822
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 that have never been experienced before in San
2 Francisco.
3 For example, I had two very incisive, in-depth
4 meetings with Mimi Silbert of Delancey Street. We had
5 prepared for the beginnings of starting the first-ever
6 reentry pod in the San Francisco County Jail, where
7 there would be a lateral reentry program so that we
8 would speak effectively against the highest incidence of
9 recidivism that usually occurs within the first six
10 months of release from jail so that our relationship
11 with Delancey would be piloted in showing what a pod
12 would look like for people who would then be supervised
13 by Delancey Street administration while they're in
14 custody and continue to be post-custody. I was very
15 much looking forward to that pilot project taking off.
16 The second would be with SAGE, an organization
17 which I did authorize where there would be monies
18 allocated to SAGE in starting a case-worker program on
19 part time so that women who were then exiting the county
20 jail system would then be welcomed by a SAGE case worker
21 so that they would not necessarily go back into the
22 sex-worker/prostitute industry and/or, if they were
23 being exploited or harmed in any particular way, that
24 the sheriff's department would then involve itself in
25 assisting them so that they wouldn't return to that
823
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 lifestyle.
2 The third was I was in longstanding conversations
3 with Adult Probation Chief Wendy Still and the city and
4 the state about involving a dedicated pod, reentry pod,
5 and we were negotiating over that reentry pod for what
6 population of offender that that reentry pod would be
7 for and negotiating whether it would be women only or
8 men, and that was where I had left the discussion.
9 We were preparing the beginnings of a budget which
10 the previous-year budget, before I took office, was
11 approximately $171 million, but this was now the first
12 year where the city was beginning to see some light at
13 the end of the tunnel -- tunnel of previous five-year
14 budget deficits where I was going to advocate
15 vociferously for better realignment programs that would
16 be more effective in reentry.
17 I also sent several letters both to the police
18 chief and to the mayor and to the city controller about
19 the deputy sheriffs' elevating their role in the larger
20 construct of public safety. I believe that we could
21 have saved the City and County money by seeing the
22 divisi
on transfer of what is known as the station
23 transfer unit that is now under the governance of the
24 police department to the sheriff's department because
25 the deputy sheriffs are paid approximately 23 percent
824
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 less than the SFPD officers and it's a -- it is a
2 routine action that even the San Francisco Police
3 Department experimented once that they know that they
4 could be alleviated from by freeing up police officers
5 so that the sheriff's department would pick that up as
6 well.
7 I also --
8 MR. KEITH: Commissioners, if I could -- I'm -- I'm
9 sorry to interrupt the witness, but I think we've got
10 into quite a narrative here, and I would rather proceed
11 by question and answer.
12 COMMISSIONER HUR: Please! Again, I'm sorry, but I
13 am directing the sheriffs that if they can tell who is
14 making noises, we have to remove you from the
15 proceedings. Thank you.
16 I agree that it is better by question and answer,
17 Mr. Waggoner, so -- the objection is late, though, so
18 I'm going to overrule it. But I -- for our benefit, it
19 would be helpful if we could proceed a little more by
20 question and answer on this.
21 MR. WAGGONER: Thank you, Commissioner.
22 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, but as I prefaced, I will
23 do my best to synthesize, but it's a long --
24 I believe I was saying about presenting the idea to
25 the mayor, to the police department, to the controller
825
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 in ways of saving money, but also in elevating, I think,
2 the role of deputy sheriffs beyond the duties that they
3 routinely fulfilled in their credential as being peace
4 officers and in the city's lament of having a deficit of
5 SFPD officers.
6 I think that there was an opportunity to help
7 complement and augment where staffing was short. That
8 could be from the routine duties of monitoring --
9 monitoring inmates at San Francisco General, for
10 example, or at the courts, where the police would be
11 alleviated from having to do that, where the sheriffs
12 certainly could, because overtime is something that the
13 city's quite challenged by. And again, the math would
14 be well saved by the sheriff's department.
15 And I went as far to talk about what is unpopular.
16 And what is unpopular is about ways that we can help
17 with community policing where I think it is poorly
18 practiced in San Francisco, something that as a
19 supervisor, I spoke about quite vociferously, that I
20 think that our department could have helped, assisted
21 with, and so on.
22 There's quite a bit more that occurred in those
23 first two and a half months.
24 MR. WAGGONER: Q. Thank you, Sheriff. You
25 mentioned that you sent letters to the police chief and
826
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 others. You mentioned that you had conversations will
2 Probation Chief Wendy Still. Were you able to work
3 effectively with those individuals?
4 MR. KEITH: Objection, calls for speculation.
5 COMMISSIONER HUR: Overruled.
6 THE WITNESS: Yes, and I would say in terms of the
7 messages they sent me that that only supported and
8 affirmed, I think, the fluid relationship that we had
9 even while I was engaged in a -- in the process at the
10 Hall of Justice.
11 MR. WAGGONER: Q. Thank you. Sheriff Mirkarimi,
12 do you think you can continue to be sheriff of the City
13 and County of San Francisco?
14 MR. KEITH: Objection, relevance.
15 COMMISSIONER HUR: Overruled based on your previous
16 representation of the argument you're going to make.
17 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do believe that I can, and I
18 believe I can quite effectively. I realize the uphill
19 battle that has now been laid in front of me, and I
20 believe that probably to the eyes of everybody, it would
21 seem almost next to impossible for somebody in my
22 position to try to rise to that standard.
23 But I campaigned and I always believed as a
24 supervisor and even before that, as a nine-year member
25 of the district attorney's office and as a graduate
827
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 class president of the San Francisco Police Academy,
2 that what makes San Francisco special is that our
3 forward-thinking approach, I think, to public safety and
4 criminal justice -- and I was very outspoken that in my
5 administration, part of that acknowledges the idea of
6 what a power of redemption may look like.
7 Never in my wildest dreams did I think I would
8 become an example of what that redemptive process could
9 look like. But I believe as sheriff, somebody who's
10 gone through this process that has been well and
11 high-profiled throughout the country and abroad, that
12 that certainly sets the challenges before me that
13 somebody who now has seen both sides of the aisle, I
14 think helps in a way that, if people would just open
15 their minds, can serve as an asset.
16 And what it means to speaking more, I think, to
17 some of the strengths and some of the weaknesses of the
18 criminal justice system, and the people that come
19 through the county jail system and the people that are
20 in charge of working the county jail system in the City
21 and County of San Francisco all have one goal in mind,
22 and that goal is that we hope that those people do not
23 return back to the county jail system that are
24 incarcerated.
25 And I think that if we are, I think, put to the
828
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 side of dehumanizing people that are inside that jail
2 system and that we are cognizant of the fact that our
3 objective is to do everything we can so that we not see
4 repeat offenders -- and I think I as the sheriff, who
5 has had a career in law enforcement, who has fought hard
6 in this city as a supervisor that took a district with
7 one of the highest homicide rates for 20 years and
8 brought it down with the cooperation of both city and
9 law enforcement and community, that helps prepare me to
10 continue to be, I think, one of the best sheriffs I
11 possibly can be, as I was voted to be for the people of
12 San Francisco.
13 MR. WAGGONER: Thank you, Sheriff. Thank you,
14 Commissioners. We have nothing further.
15 COMMISSIONER HUR: I'll give some limited recross,
16 but within the scope of redirect, and not more time than
17 he took.
18 ---o0o---
19 RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. KEITH:
20 MR. KEITH: Q. Sheriff, when you were describing
21 one of the ways that you think you can be a good
22 sheriff, you mentioned that you've gone through this
23 process. Do you recall that?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Okay. And when you talk about having gone
829
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 through this process, are you referring to the crim- --
2 UNKNOWN MAN: Speak into the mic, please.
3 MR. KEITH: Q. When you talk about having gone
4 through this process, are you referring to the criminal
5 justice process?
6 A. And the whole experience, yes.
7 Q. Okay. Well, that criminal justice process
8 involved initially a charge. Correct? On
9 January 13th?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay. And then you were sentenced. You were
12 convicted and sentenced in March of this year?
13 MR. WAGGONER: Objection. We've been over this.
14 Asked and answered.
15 COMMISSIONER HUR: We have. Sustained.
16 MR. KEITH: Okay.
17 Q. Sheriff, you mentioned having gone through
18 this process. The criminal justice process with regard
19 to what you did on December 31st is not over. Are you
20 done with the criminal justice process with regard to
21 what happened on December 31st?
22 MR. WAGGONER: Objection, asked and answered.
23 COMMISSIONER HUR: Overruled.
24 THE WITNESS: As -- are you referring to probation?
25 MR. KEITH: Q. You're still on probation.
830
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. So you're not done with probation?
3 A. No.
4 Q. And you're still in your mandatory 52 weeks of
5 domestic violence counseling?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And the process of redemption does not happen
8 overnight, does it?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Okay. And you're aware that the official
11 misconduct provision of the charter does not contain a
12 lifetime ban on employment. It's a five-year ban. You
13 are aware of that, are you not?
14 A. I'm -- I'm sorry, I'm not.
15 Q. Okay. Sheriff, you mentioned in your -- the
16 list of some of the things that you had been doing in
17 the two months that you were sheriff being involved in
18 reentry and preparing for realignment. Do you recall
19 that?
20 A. Yes, I do.
21 Q. Okay. And that is an area where you need to
22 collaborate with other criminal justice agencies?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You have to collaborate with the district
25 attorney?
831
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. The public defender?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You have to collaborate with the chief of
5 adult probation?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You have to collaborate with the courts?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And you're negotiating important issues with
10 these other law enforcement agencies.
11 A. And contracts potentially, yes.
12 Q. Right. Which agency will take certain
13 responsibilities?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Which agency is best positioned to undertake
16 certain responsibilities?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Okay. These are all things that you are --
19 that reentry and realignment require you to work with
20 your peer agencies as an equal?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You are subject to the jurisdiction of the
23 San Francisco Adult Probation Department?
24 MR. WAGGONER: Objection, asked and answered.
25 COMMISSIONER HUR: Sustained.
832
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 MR. KEITH: Q. Now, Sheriff, when -- during one of
2 your answers, you mentioned that there was "an uphill
3 battle laid in front of me." Those were -- those were
4 your words, this uphill battle that you had that --
5 "laid in front of me."
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Okay. Sheriff, who put that battle in front
8 of you? Who was responsible for that?
9 MR. WAGGONER: Objection, calls for speculation.
10 COMMISSIONER HUR: Overruled.
11 THE WITNESS: Me.
12 MR. KEITH: Nothing further.
13 COMMISSIONER HUR: Thank you.
14 I believe the commissioners may have questions for
15 the sheriff, so let me open it up to my fellow
16 commissioners, for anyone who may have questions for the
17 sheriff.
18 Commissioner Liu.
19 COMMISSIONER LIU: Thank you.
20 THE WITNESS: Fine.
21 COMMISSIONER HUR: Can you see each other?
22 COMMISSIONER LIU: Yes.
23 COMMISSIONER HUR: Okay.
24 COMMISSIONER LIU: Good afternoon, Sheriff.
25 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon.
833
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 COMMISSIONER LIU: Mr. Keith had read into the
2 record a statement you made in open court, in criminal
3 court, in the criminal proceeding, where you apologized
4 to Ms. Madison and her family. What exactly were you
5 apologizing for?
6 THE WITNESS: There was nothing specific laid out
7 in the apology, just for the whole tone and tenor of
8 everything that occurred.
9 COMMISSIONER LIU: Tone and tenor of what?
10 THE WITNESS: The whole experience. That's all.
11 COMMISSIONER LIU: But what experience were you
12 apologizing for?
13 THE WITNESS: It was just a general apology.
14 COMMISSIONER LIU: Were you apologizing for any
15 actions that you had taken?
16 THE WITNESS: I had not taken any actions against
17 Ms. Madison or Mertens.
18 COMMISSIONER LIU: Were you apologizing for any
19 actions taken by your representatives?
20 THE WITNESS: No.
21 COMMISSIONER LIU: I guess I'm just unclear why you
22 were -- why you made a public apology to her and her
23 family.
24 THE WITNESS: Well, it was suggested that I do and
25 I agreed with it.
834
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 COMMISSIONER LIU: And do you know what the basis
2 was for the suggestion that you apologize?
3 THE WITNESS: No, that was provided by the District
4 Attorney, and I agreed to it.
5 COMMISSIONER LIU: I see. Okay. And the other --
6 only other question I had was how -- how did you come to
7 grab your wife's arm on December 31st? Because I
8 don't -- I definitely don't want to belabor the point,
9 but I don't think we've heard from you exactly the
10 context of what happened.
11 THE WITNESS: When my wife and I were returning,
12 because I had turned the car around from us going to
13 lunch, at about 11:45, 11:50 a.m., because we had been
14 quarreling, I had -- we were both in a very heated
15 discussion.
16 COMMISSIONER LIU: While you were driving?
17 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes. I mean, no physical or
18 anything, just sort of heated. I was driving; my wife's
19 in the passenger seat; my son is in the back seat. It's
20 a minivan, and so in his back child-booster seat.
21 And parked the car. We got home, parked the car.
22 We were quarreling. And both me and my wife were upset.
23 My son was crying. And I was stupidly, wrongly thinking
24 that I can, you know, respond to this in a way that
25 might calm things down. And I reached out to my wife
835
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 while I was in my -- in the driver's seat while she was
2 unharnessing our son. She was half in and half out of
3 the minivan, unharnessing him. He was upset; she was
4 upset. And I put my hand underneath her right arm, and
5 that's how it got bruised.
6 COMMISSIONER LIU: Okay. I see. And yesterday,
7 last night, you had testified that you had violated your
8 wife's personal liberty. Other than the act of grabbing
9 her arm, was there any other way in which you violated
10 her personal liberty?
11 THE WITNESS: What I believe that they're referring
12 to is to what I had pled to, is the false imprisonment,
13 236, refers to me turning the van around against her
14 wishes when we were on our way to lunch.
15 I was concerned about us quarreling out in public,
16 in a place that didn't take reservations, and just
17 thought that we would take a detour back and either have
18 lunch somewhere else or at home because it -- we need
19 to -- our son needed to eat. And so we went home and he
20 had lunch at home.
21 COMMISSIONER LIU: Okay. Thank you.
22 THE WITNESS: Yes.
23 COMMISSIONER HUR: Any other questions from the
24 commissioners? Commissioner Renne.
25 COMMISSIONER RENNE: Good morning, Sheriff. You've
836
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 seen the tape that's Exhibit 4, have you not?
2 THE WITNESS: The tape made of -- with my wife and
3 the neighbor?
4 COMMISSIONER RENNE: Of your wife.
5 THE WITNESS: Yes.
6 COMMISSIONER RENNE: And is there anything
7 inaccurate that your wife described in describing the
8 events of December 31st, that you say was inaccurate?
9 THE WITNESS: Maybe. There's some vague statements
10 that were made on that tape, and I wouldn't know if I
11 would say they were inaccurate, but definitely vague.
12 One statement in particular is that -- I'm trying
13 to recall, because it's been a long -- it's been a while
14 since I've seen the tape -- that she refers to or it's
15 been said that I said I was a powerful man. I never
16 said that. Ever did I say that.
17 In fact, referring back to the questioning earlier,
18 both by counsel and -- both counsel, I was referring to
19 the powers of the state as it re- -- as it pertained to
20 custody questions because of the nature of our argument
21 about potential custody and taking our son away for a
22 long period of time.
23 COMMISSIONER RENNE: But insofar as her making
24 reference to your having used the term "powerful" or
25 having something being powerful, that was in fact part
837
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 of the conversation?
2 THE WITNESS: Yes, it was. The comment was
3 never -- and it's just not my style. I -- but I never
4 said "I'm a powerful man." Never did I say that.
5 COMMISSIONER RENNE: Now, in -- in that tape, your
6 wife also makes some statements about the sort of
7 condition of your marital relationship; that is, that
8 it's troubled or that there'd been talk of divorce and
9 things of that nature. Were those inaccurate
10 statements?
11 THE WITNESS: No.
12 COMMISSIONER RENNE: Now, have you read the
13 declaration of Ivory Madison?
14 THE WITNESS: Yes, but since it has been changed,
15 I -- I have to keep up in seeing what the final product
16 is, yes.
17 COMMISSIONER RENNE: And did you note that there
18 were references to statements that your wife made to
19 Ms. Madison about the events of December 31st?
20 THE WITNESS: Yes.
21 COMMISSIONER RENNE: And were any of the statements
22 that were attributed to your wife by Ms. Madison -- were
23 they inaccurate descriptions of what had happened on
24 December 31st?
25 THE WITNESS: I believe that there was some
838
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 embellishing.
2 COMMISSIONER RENNE: Such as?
3 THE WITNESS: Well, the "powerful" statement,
4 number one. The -- as it relates to what Ms. Madison
5 reported, there was no argument inside the house. There
6 was no where my wife left the house, talking about the
7 police. That never occurred at all.
8 COMMISSIONER RENNE: So that it's your testim
ony
9 that although you continued to argue and have heated
10 discussion when you returned, when you turned around and
11 returned back home, once you got out of the automobile,
12 there were no longer any heated discussions?
13 THE WITNESS: That's correct. That's absolutely
14 correct.
15 COMMISSIONER RENNE: No further questions.
16 COMMISSIONER HUR: Commissioner Hayon.
17 COMMISSIONER HAYON: In the -- good morning,
18 Sheriff.
19 THE WITNESS: Good morning.
20 COMMISSIONER HAYON: In the text messages that we
21 saw or looked at earlier this morning, there was
22 characterization of the domestic violence advocates,
23 with, I guess, Beverly Upton in particular --
24 THE WITNESS: Right.
25 COMMISSIONER HAYON: -- where the protests that
839
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 took place following news of your -- you know, of the
2 incident on December 31st where you characterized
3 those efforts as a political witch hunt; is that
4 correct?
5 THE WITNESS: It was in response to the message I
6 received previously from Linnette Peralta Haynes, and I
7 had repeated the term that was in her previous message,
8 yes.
9 COMMISSIONER HAYON: Well, I guess my question
10 would be, then, in terms of domestic violence advocates
11 and the kind of protests that certainly have been
12 prevalent in the city of San Francisco and with our very
13 progressive record on how we deal with domestic violence
14 in the city, do you consider all of those vehement
15 protests or anger about domestic violence political
16 witch hunts in every case?
17 THE WITNESS: No, but in this particular case, what
18 I was informed of is that people who were part of that
19 protest were also well-connected to my opponent's
20 campaign for sheriff. And at the time, with limited
21 information, that is what people were speculating.
22 COMMISSIONER HAYON: And if others were
23 speculating, so did you agree with this speculation?
24 Was that your conclusion as well? I mean, does the fact
25 that they may have been connected to political opponents
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Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 in the race automatically make it a political witch
2 hunt?
3 THE WITNESS: Not at all, no. But at that
4 particular time, we're taking in information and
5 processing it as we are going along.
6 COMMISSIONER HAYON: Okay. Thank you.
7 COMMISSIONER HUR: Commissioner Studley?
8 COMMISSIONER STUDLEY: You mentioned that at your
9 meeting with the Bay Guardian, I believe it was, that
10 Mr. Jeff Gillenkirk was one of the people at the
11 meeting; is that correct?
12 THE WITNESS: Yes.
13 COMMISSIONER STUDLEY: What was Mr. Gillenkirk's
14 role? And I understand you invited him. He was there
15 as --
16 THE WITNESS: Yes.
17 COMMISSIONER STUDLEY: -- part of your group at
18 that meeting?
19 What role did he play in that -- for what reason
20 did you include him in that meeting?
21 THE WITNESS: He had called me and reached out and
22 noticed, I think, that we did not have really any media
23 strategy at all, and offered any kind of advice. And we
24 didn't really know each other at all, but I invited him
25 if he wanted to come join us. He said hardly anything
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Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 at that meeting.
2 COMMISSIONER STUDLEY: What is his professional
3 background? If you know.
4 THE WITNESS: Public relations, I believe, or media
5 relations.
6 COMMISSIONER STUDLEY: And after that meeting, did
7 he work with you on media relations and public relations
8 strategy?
9 THE WITNESS: Very little. Very little. We have
10 no money to pay, so it's volunteer call here and there.
11 COMMISSIONER STUDLEY: Did you have a media
12 strategy or public relations plan -- and I say that
13 lower case, informal plan -- about what you would do as
14 a media matter?
15 THE WITNESS: They had suggestions, but we really
16 have no plan per se.
17 COMMISSIONER STUDLEY: And --
18 THE WITNESS: It's pretty ad hoc.
19 COMMISSIONER STUDLEY: And what were those
20 suggestions?
21 THE WITNESS: Write a -- write letters to the
22 editor, write an opinion piece. When I was -- I was
23 constantly being asked to do media interviews and
24 frankly quite insecure about doing so for a great many
25 weeks, and just simply, you know, any pointers on doing
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Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 one. I was not a stranger to the media, but in this
2 particular case I had -- it had been some while since I
3 engaged in any media interviews.
4 COMMISSIONER STUDLEY: I have one other question.
5 This relates to one of the text messages. On
6 January 4th at 5:51 p.m., we have a text message from
7 Ms. Lopez saying, "You have to call hennessey and stop
8 this before something happen. Ivory is giving the
9 investigators everything. Use your power."
10 Do you know what Ms. Lopez was referring to when
11 she said "use your power"?
12 THE WITNESS: I believe my wife was trying to make
13 sense out of what was crashing all before and she
14 thought that I might be able to do something about it.
15 And I think it just underscores my wife not familiar
16 with the process, and I was clear with her that I just
17 can't.
18 COMMISSIONER STUDLEY: The phrase "use your power,"
19 I'm wondering where -- where you think that phrase came
20 from, why she used that particular phrase, "use your
21 power."
22 THE WITNESS: That was just my wife using her
23 own -- that's her vocabulary.
24 COMMISSIONER STUDLEY: Had you used that phrase?
25 Have you referred to your power previously?
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Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 THE WITNESS: No, I did not.
2 COMMISSIONER STUDLEY: Thank you.
3 COMMISSIONER HUR: Mr. Sheriff, good morning. I
4 want to follow up on something that Commissioner
Renne
5 asked you.
6 Why is it that once you and your wife got out of
7 the car on December 31st -- why did you -- why did the
8 argument suddenly stop?
9 THE WITNESS: Frankly, because of our child. I
10 think that I stayed in the car to just kind of reflect
11 on what happened. My wife collected our -- our son and
12 went into the house. And I was still in the driver's
13 seat and took my seat belt off and collected some of the
14 things, like our child's bag and some of the other
15 belongings inside the car, and locked up the car and
16 went into the house. It was lunchtime.
17 And if you knew my wife, she's extremely regimented
18 about eating at certain times, and so I didn't want to
19 add to the tension. So that was something that we
20 honor. And it was lunchtime, and my son was being given
21 lunch.
22 COMMISSIONER HUR: Any other questions for the
23 sheriff? Commissioner Hayon.
24 COMMISSIONER HAYON: One thing that really I
25 haven't heard anything about is in terms of the timeline
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Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 when your wife called you and spoke to you and
2 acknowledged and explained to you that she had visited
3 the neighbor and that there had been a videotape and
4 that she had recounted the events of December 31st to
5 Ms. Madison.
6 Given your reaction to, you know, December 31st
7 and your anger and volatility, from what it sounds like,
8 I haven't heard anything at all about how you reacted
9 upon hearing that news that your wife had not only gone
10 to the neighbor, but had allowed a videotape of these
11 events. Can you talk about that a little bit?
12 THE WITNESS: Well, my wife did not go into detail
13 about the videotape when I was first informed, and I did
14 not see the videotape until sometime later. So I was,
15 just as I said earlier, processing what was occurring.
16 Frankly, I was kind of in a state of shock when she was
17 informing me about what was going on.
18 And when she had called me and when we had met on
19 the Grove side about a block away from City Hall, I was
20 simply just trying to absorb what she was telling me,
21 trying to make sense out of this. It was surreal.
22 And -- and little attention was being discussed about a
23 videotape at that time.
24 What was on my wife's mind -- because I felt like I
25 needed to protect my wife because she was the one who
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Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 was scared and panicked as well as I was becoming that
2 way. But I wasn't fully being able to, you know, take
3 time to comprehend everything that was going on. I was
4 just listening.
5 COMMISSIONER HAYON: Why do you think your wife was
6 so scared and panicked?
7 THE WITNESS: I think scared because she felt
8 betrayed by the neighbor. And that was the nature of
9 what she was rushing to and telling me about, what this
10 neighbor was doing. And this is the first I'm learning
11 of all this, so I'm trying to understand it myself
12 because it just sounds so -- just sounds so amazing, so
13 crazy.
14 COMMISSIONER HAYON: Is it possible that she was
15 scared and panicked in anticipation of what your
16 reaction might have been?
17 THE WITNESS: No, I -- I -- I don't believe that
18 because she was very clear about what she was scared
19 about, and that was what the neighbor -- and whatever
20 was occurring between she and the neighbor, because my
21 reaction, if you noticed, was frankly very measured as
22 it related to even when she asked me to see if there was
23 something I can do about it later that day.
24 My reaction was not anything more than just really
25 listening, trying to process the details that were being
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Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 provided to me, and trying to then respond with what I
2 thought were the responsible decisions that I wasn't
3 going to interfere with an investigation and not
4 interfere with the process that apparently had been
5 unleashed.
6 And at the same time, my wife was looking to me for
7 some response because she felt, obviously, concerned and
8 troubled. And so all of this confluence at the exact
9 same time was where I was trying to make sense of how I
10 can maintain the professional standards and integrity of
11 what I'm hearing third party now that is occurring, and
12 at the same time addressing, I think, the concerns of my
13 wife.
14 COMMISSIONER HAYON: I have one more question.
15 COMMISSIONER HUR: Please.
16 COMMISSIONER HAYON: On another subject, just to
17 follow up on Commissioner Studley's questions about your
18 media strategy or lack thereof, in crisis management, a
19 basic is to acknowledge, apologize, and assure the
20 public that what has transpired in terms of a crisis
21 will never happen again. And generally speaking, I
22 think that in most critical media situations where this
23 has been followed, it tends to defuse the situation and
24 often end the situation rather quickly so that there is
25 not a long, drawn-out media frenzy such as we've
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Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 experienced in San Francisco over this case.
2 I'm just wondering whether or not anyone that you
3 consulted, whether it be your campaign manager or any
4 media strategists with whom you spoke, advised you to do
5 something like that immediately, get it out of the way
6 so that you could move on and not have to -- well, get
7 to this point as we are here today.
8 THE WITNESS: The answer is at a high price, there
9 were a couple of media strategists that we talked to
10 that suggested that we do something like this. And
11 again, it was very ad hoc at best. There was no media
12 strategy and no media plan.
13 In hindsight, I sure wish we did, in many ways, and
14 I really admit, you know, that there -- we failed in
15 being able to, I think, explain and present in the way
16 that I think you just suggested. It was an overwhelming
17 and continued to be an overwhelming event to be branded
18 in the way that I was branded by the paper of record and
19 others, and it b
ecame where in essence I just kind of
20 shut down. And I did.
21 Personally speaking, I was sad. I was humiliated
22 and ashamed. I was losing my -- my family, where I
23 still have not been able to see my wife since
24 January 13th, separation of my son. My past had been
25 completely tarnished and sullied and my future now
848
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 completely in question; my family, not sure when I'd be
2 able to get back together and repair with my wife and
3 son.
4 All these things coming together, in hindsight, I
5 absolutely wish that we were more on top of it in
6 demonstrating the wherewithal to do something like, say,
7 when Mayor Newsom did when his scandal erupted and when
8 he had the resources to be able to bring together the
9 kind of response that he did or when others do so.
10 COMMISSIONER HAYON: Well, let me just add, I would
11 have to say that, you know, in order to issue an apology
12 and be forthcoming about the events, there need not be
13 any cost involved whatsoever. It's just a common-sense
14 approach to being honest and forthcoming when you are in
15 a crisis situation, and you don't have to have a
16 high-priced PR person in order to do that. That as an
17 aside, but --
18 THE WITNESS: Except in this regard, though, that
19 in -- I think there's been a couple --
20 COMMISSIONER HUR: There's no question.
21 Do you want his response?
22 THE WITNESS: Sorry.
23 COMMISSIONER HAYON: No, that's fine.
24 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
25 COMMISSIONER HAYON: Thank you.
849
Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 COMMISSIONER HUR: Any other questions?
2 Thank you, Mr. Sheriff.
3 THE WITNESS: All right. Thank you.
4 MR. KEITH: Commissioners, there was a new matter
5 raised that I would like to follow up on. I don't want
6 to go on anything that's already been covered, but there
7 was one new matter raised by Commissioner Liu regarding
8 the basis for the false-imprisonment plea. I'd like to
9 do a brief follow-up on that issue.
10 COMMISSIONER HUR: I'll hear argument.
11 MR. WAGGONER: We would object to that.
12 Commissioners, the mayor has already been -- went over
13 twice the time estimate that he gave us last night. I
14 don't think there's anything left at this point. So we
15 would object to any further time being spent on that.
16 COMMISSIONER HUR: I open this up to my fellow
17 commissioners. It's a process issue that I think may
18 come up again. I am inclined in light of the
19 opportunity that counsel had to examine not to allow
20 further examination by counsel after the questions of
21 the commissioners, but I -- I'm open to suggestions.
22 COMMISSIONER RENNE: What is the new matter that
23 you say you hadn't already covered?
24 MR. KEITH: That the sheriff mentioned what he
25 considered to be the factual basis for his
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Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 false-imprisonment plea, and I wanted to ask him a
2 follow-up question about that. That is not an issue
3 that we had gone into with either counsel, and that he
4 had -- that he had raised in response to a question from
5 Commissioner Liu.
6 COMMISSIONER HUR: Commissioner Studley?
7 COMMISSIONER STUDLEY: Although I would defer to
8 the active litigators on the panel on this, I guess I do
9 have a feeling that when commissioner questions -- if
10 commissioner questions open a new area, that either
11 counsel might be allowed to clarify. I don't think this
12 is a question of total time; I think it's a question of
13 whether we have done something to -- to raise new
14 territory. But I would.
15 COMMISSIONER RENNE: I would agree with
16 Commissioner Studley.
17 COMMISSIONER HUR: Okay. Why don't we allow some
18 questioning, very limited.
19 ---o0o---
20 FURTHER RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. KEITH:
21 MR. KEITH: Q. Commissioner -- I'm sorry.
22 Sheriff, you mentioned in response to a question
23 from Commissioner Liu that the false imprisonment that
24 you committed against your wife consisted of turning the
25 van around. Do you recall that remark?
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Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 A. Yes, but the term was "liberty," in
2 restricting liberty --
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. -- and that's what I was thinking that she was
5 referring to.
6 Q. Okay. But in any case, your answer was that
7 that was, in your mind, the factual basis for your plea
8 to false imprisonment?
9 A. Well, I was answering a question about was
10 there another time of restricting the liberty, and
11 that's what I -- on December 31st.
12 Q. Okay. Sheriff, did the district attorney ever
13 state to you, "We are accepting your plea of false
14 imprisonment because you turned the van around"?
15 MR. WAGGONER: Objection, relevance.
16 COMMISSIONER HUR: Short rope. I'll allow it.
17 THE WITNESS: I don't.
18 MR. KEITH: Okay. Nothing -- nothing further.
19 Thank you.
20 COMMISSIONER HUR: Mr. Waggoner? Anything?
21 MR. WAGGONER: No. Thank you, Commissioners.
22 COMMISSIONER HUR: Thank you. Thank you, Sheriff.
23 I think at this point we should take the lunch
24 break. I would like to take a 45-minute break, if
25 that's acceptable to the parties.
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Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 MR. KEITH: Yes.
2 MR. WAGGONER: Yes, that's fine.
3 COMMISSIONER HUR: I understand that we need to
4 clear this room entirely during that break. I also
5 would expect that we get back here at 1:00 o'clock and
6 have testimony from the mayor at that point. Okay? So
7 let's take a lunch break.
8 (Lunch recess taken at 12:15 p.m.)
9 ---o0o---
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Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi
1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER
2
3 I hereby certify that the foregoing
4 proceedings in the within-entitled cause took place at
5 the time and place herein stated and were reported by
6 me, MARLENE PUAOI, a Certified Shorthand Reporter and
7 disinterested person, and were thereafter transcribed
8 into typewriting;
9
10 And I further certify that I am not of counsel
11 or attorney for either or any of the parties nor in any
12 way interested in the outcome of the cause named in said
13 caption.
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15 IN WITNESS WHEREOF I have hereunto set my hand
16 and affixed my signature this 13th day of July 2012.
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19 MARLENE PUAOI, CSR, RPR
California CSR No. 7370
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Ethics Commission Meeting - Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi